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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/14/2008 2:38:06 PM
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StephK
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The higher death tolls from the earthquakes has a lot to do with lower building standards of those countries. Also the fact that the Myanmar government failed to notify its people that there was a major storm coming so they could evacuate is the main factor for the high death toll. As far as the deaths from the tsunami that was also more to do with a lack of governments providing a warning system.
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Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/14/2008 3:07:02 PM
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StephK
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Sure the 8.5 and higher quakes will demolish everything but the less intensive quakes aren't so deadly when higher building codes are mandatory. Remember when the quake in Iran or maybe Turkey hit and thousands were killed while a quake about the same magnitude hit in California killed two and there wasn't that much damage?
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Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/14/2008 3:21:20 PM
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StephK
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Part of that is because they live on fault lines. There are natural disasters all over the world. This type of discussion happened after Katrina with people saying that it was God's judgment when in fact the places of ill repute never shut down. The major damage hit a lot of decent and God fearing people though.
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Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/14/2008 7:56:08 PM
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scutus
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quote:
Interestingly, the vast majority of major earthquakes that cause thousands of deaths usually occur in places where Christians are persecuted the most. China, Indonesia, Iran, etc. experience the most deaths consistently. It is a very sad thing.
Because they don't have good building codes. Honestly, such thinking that God is punishing the innocent citizens of evil countries is morally repugnant to me.
quote:
It was simply an observation. By the same token, where is the most starvation occuring? Africa is split roughly equally along Christian and Muslim lines. I'm sure God is punishing those Christian Africans who are starving so badly because they are persecuting themselves.
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"Take your son."
"I have two sons."
"Your only son."
"Each of them is the only son of his mother."
"The one whom you love."
"I love them both."
"Isaac."
-God to Abraham, according to a Jewish midrash.
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/15/2008 7:48:18 AM
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jazzact13
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quote:
While that is true in part, how many other places regularly receive jolts above 7.0 on the Richter?
From what I've heard, such quakes do not happen regularly in China.
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there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/15/2008 9:08:50 AM
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tracydolls
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Luk 13:2 And answering, Jesus said to them, Do you suppose that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, No. But unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were sinners above all men who lived in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, No. But unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
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1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/15/2008 11:04:55 AM
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jazzact13
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quote:
Because they don't have good building codes. Honestly, such thinking that God is punishing the innocent citizens of evil countries is morally repugnant to me.
Leaving aside the question of what it means for anyone to be 'innocent' especially in God's sight, why should the notion that God would be use such things as signs or warnings be such a bad thing? If you consider, for example, the biblical book of Judges, when the people followed God He kept them safe, but when they turned from Him and turned to idols, He took His hand from them and they experienced hardships.
Or to look at something from Hosea 4
1. Hear the word of the Lord, you Israelites, because the LORD has a charge to bring against you who live in the land: "There is no faithfulness, no love, no acknowledgment of God in the land.
2. There is only cursing, lying and murder, stealing and adultery; they break all bounds, and bloodshed follows bloodshed.
3. Because of this the land mourns, and all who live in it waste away; the beasts of the field and the birds of the air and the fish of the sea are dying.
How it works, I can't say for certain, but God does seem to link a people's moral behavior with the conditions of their land.
That is, I think, one reason why it is important to not only help people with their physical needs when such things occur, but to also help them with the spiritual, too. To give them things like food and shelter, and to give them the message that Jesus died to forgive them if they repent.
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there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/15/2008 2:02:56 PM
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ObviousLee
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
Leaving aside the question of what it means for anyone to be 'innocent' especially in God's sight, why should the notion that God would be use such things as signs or warnings be such a bad thing? If you consider, for example, the biblical book of Judges, when the people followed God He kept them safe, but when they turned from Him and turned to idols, He took His hand from them and they experienced hardships.
Or to look at something from Hosea 4
1. Hear the word of the Lord, you Israelites, because the LORD has a charge to bring against you who live in the land: "There is no faithfulness, no love, no acknowledgment of God in the land.
2. There is only cursing, lying and murder, stealing and adultery; they break all bounds, and bloodshed follows bloodshed.
3. Because of this the land mourns, and all who live in it waste away; the beasts of the field and the birds of the air and the fish of the sea are dying.
How it works, I can't say for certain, but God does seem to link a people's moral behavior with the conditions of their land.
It is a bit of a mystery. The thing that may cause me to question any sort of absolute in viewing a natural disaster in non-Christian lands as an act of God would be just the fact that they are not Christian lands. For instance, if we relate the U.S. and Europe to the Israelites, while natural disasters do occur (as we've had one recently in the mid-west), we've not had them to the same magnitude (relatively speaking). Here in the western world, when people rebel, many do so with an understanding that we have a Christian heritage, with the Bible readily available to anyone. When our society rebels, we even use references to the word sin and/or the devil for marketing purposes to attempt to create appeal.
However, in many non-Christian countries, while not down-playing the evil of their false religions, will not practice their religions with a conscious defiance of Christianity.
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The buck stops here!
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/15/2008 3:51:19 PM
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jazzact13
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quote:
For instance, if we relate the U.S. and Europe to the Israelites, while natural disasters do occur (as we've had one recently in the mid-west), we've not had them to the same magnitude (relatively speaking).
Is that completely correct, though?
For example, how many hurricanes frequently hit the US in a year? I don't have a number, but it usually seems like there are a few that do so. And while they do damage and lives may even be lost, the total from each is usually much lower then if such a storm were to strike in some other places.
There are perhaps many reasons for that--stronger and better made buildings, better warning systems, people having more time to get out of the way.
The point being, things do happen pretty frequently over here--ice storms and heavy snows, hurricanes and tornadoes, earthquakes, droughts, wildfires. But as a rule they don't do near as much damage here as they would in other places in the world. Even as bad as Katrina was, it rather pales when compared to Burma, though I'm not sure how the storms would be if they could be compared to each other.
quote:
However, in many non-Christian countries, while not down-playing the evil of their false religions, will not practice their religions with a conscious defiance of Christianity
That is an interesting point. From what I understand, though, the governments of both Burma and China are actively against Christians doing evanglistic works in their countries. Perhaps many of the people could claim ignorance, but the governments seem to at least think they know enough to be against it.
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there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/18/2008 9:55:06 AM
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Birdiecat
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I live in Mississippi. The San Madrid fault line comes into Mississippi. In the last 9 days we've had 2 3.1 magnitude earthquakes in Mississippi. One in Tupelo, north mississippi; one in Collins, sorta north central. Talk about diverse places for earthquakes! I spoke with a woman who had been visiting in Tupelo when the quake hit.
I can't believe how the Myanmar "government" is taking care of their people. How evil!
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Come, Lord Jesus!
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/18/2008 9:23:06 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
Talk about diverse places for earthquakes! I spoke with a woman who had been visiting in Tupelo when the quake hit.
Guess there was "a whole lot of shaking going on."
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The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/18/2008 10:35:31 PM
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ObviousLee
Posts: 286
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
quote:
For instance, if we relate the U.S. and Europe to the Israelites, while natural disasters do occur (as we've had one recently in the mid-west), we've not had them to the same magnitude (relatively speaking).
Is that completely correct, though?
For example, how many hurricanes frequently hit the US in a year? I don't have a number, but it usually seems like there are a few that do so. And while they do damage and lives may even be lost, the total from each is usually much lower then if such a storm were to strike in some other places.
There are perhaps many reasons for that--stronger and better made buildings, better warning systems, people having more time to get out of the way.
The point being, things do happen pretty frequently over here--ice storms and heavy snows, hurricanes and tornadoes, earthquakes, droughts, wildfires. But as a rule they don't do near as much damage here as they would in other places in the world. Even as bad as Katrina was, it rather pales when compared to Burma, though I'm not sure how the storms would be if they could be compared to each other.
I agree. That's pretty much the gist of my point. The fact that we as a part of the western world with Christian roots have these types of direct defiant practices against the Gospel. And yet to some of these pagan nations, our natural disasters have been minimal by comparison. In fact, the interesting thing about Katrina, is that many Christian Americans may have a tendency to right it off as a regional disaster. So instead of it being a judgment on the sins of the U.S., it may be considered attributed to those voodoo practicing bayou folk.
quote:
However, in many non-Christian countries, while not down-playing the evil of their false religions, will not practice their religions with a conscious defiance of Christianity
quote:
That is an interesting point. From what I understand, though, the governments of both Burma and China are actively against Christians doing evanglistic works in their countries. Perhaps many of the people could claim ignorance, but the governments seem to at least think they know enough to be against it.
Then again, China is a huge country. The earthquake affected only a very small area. As a whole they seem to be prospering for the most part.
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The buck stops here!
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/18/2008 10:49:56 PM
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StephK
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From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
In fact, the interesting thing about Katrina, is that many Christian Americans may have a tendency to right it off as a regional disaster. So instead of it being a judgment on the sins of the U.S., it may be considered attributed to those voodoo practicing bayou folk.
I live in Southwest Louisiana and we got hammered with Hurricane Rita three weeks after Katrina and I guarantee you that this side of the state is predominantly Christian. This area gets hit by hurricanes every so often. It's a fact of life living on the gulf coast.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/19/2008 1:53:29 AM
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ObviousLee
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
quote:
In fact, the interesting thing about Katrina, is that many Christian Americans may have a tendency to right it off as a regional disaster. So instead of it being a judgment on the sins of the U.S., it may be considered attributed to those voodoo practicing bayou folk.
I live in Southwest Louisiana and we got hammered with Hurricane Rita three weeks after Katrina and I guarantee you that this side of the state is predominantly Christian. This area gets hit by hurricanes every so often. It's a fact of life living on the gulf coast.
I believe it. I've heard someone state that they thought New Orleans was judged by the voodoo practices. I imagine the thought would be more wide spread. Probably similar to many who feel San Francisco will end up in the ocean due to it's sins. If that happens, I could be in big trouble.
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The buck stops here!
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/19/2008 5:39:52 AM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
Interestingly, the vast majority of major earthquakes that cause thousands of deaths usually occur in places where Christians are persecuted the most. China, Indonesia, Iran, etc. experience the most deaths consistently. It is a very sad thing.
While that is true in part, how many other places regularly receive jolts above 7.0 on the Richter? Several of those places hit 8.5 to 9. That will knock around pretty much anything.
The New Madrid Earthquake, one of the largest earthquakes ever recorded in the contiguous United States, occurred on February 7, 1812. It got its name from its primary location in the New Madrid Seismic Zone, near New Madrid, Louisiana Territory (now Missouri).
This earthquake was preceded by three other major quakes: two on December 16, 1811, and one on January 23, 1812. These earthquakes destroyed approximately half the town of New Madrid. There were also numerous aftershocks in the area for the rest of that winter.
There are estimates that the earthquakes were felt strongly over 50,000 square miles (130,000 km²), and moderately across nearly one million square miles. The historic San Francisco earthquake of 1906, by comparison, was felt moderately over 6,000 square miles (16,000 km²).
Based on the effects of these earthquakes, it can be estimated that they had a magnitude of 8.0 on the Richter scale. LINK
Obviously, persecuting Christians is not the sole criteria where major earthquakes occur. If the amount of deaths from natural disasters are a judgement of the sinfulness of the people then the "Bible belt" states who have lost more people due to tornadoes and hurricanes must be the most sinful places in the US.  They've lost more people to natural disasters than a state like CA who is branded the Sodom and Gomorrah of the US by some people in those states.
BTW, I've got nothing against those other states or people just making a point about natural disasters and "God's Wrath".
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Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/19/2008 5:51:13 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1749
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Birdiecat
I live in Mississippi. The San Madrid fault line comes into Mississippi. In the last 9 days we've had 2 3.1 magnitude earthquakes in Mississippi. One in Tupelo, north mississippi; one in Collins, sorta north central. Talk about diverse places for earthquakes! I spoke with a woman who had been visiting in Tupelo when the quake hit.
I can't believe how the Myanmar "government" is taking care of their people. How evil!
Having lived in So Cal all my life I can say I've experienced plenty of earthquakes! One as high as 7.3 (Landers quake) which had a 6.4 aftershock. I've been through at least five major quakes (6.0 or above) in my lifetime!
Earthquakes in the 3-4 range are ho hum earthquakes here. You'd rather have a whole slew of little ones to relieve the stress in our constantly moving earth than one huge one. And I'll still take an earthquake any day over a hurricane or tornado!
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/19/2008 10:42:49 AM
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StephK
Posts: 1821
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From: Southwest Louisiana
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Hurricanes may cause a lot of damage but there is enough warning to get out of the way unlike earthquakes and tornadoes.
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Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/19/2008 10:11:13 PM
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blessedinnyc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
Yeah. That is why I said it was partly true. Even so, the fact is that there are more deaths in these places. Disregard the reasons, and the truth remains that those who are persecuting Christians on a large scale are suffering the effects of the quakes.
What about Hurricane Katrina and Rita? Hurricane Andrew?
Even in the Bible Belt, major storms hit us. Natural disasters are a natural function of the random suffering in our broken world.
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RE: China Earthquake and Myanmar Flooding - 5/19/2008 11:17:44 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1170
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I just read a article on yahoo.
People not giving as much they are ""'disaster fatigued.""
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080519/ap_on_re_us/disaster_fatigue
I wonder if some of it is due to people feeling like they are not Christians?
_____________________________
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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