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home2excel -> defiant daughter (5/14/2008 9:54:15 AM)

I am new to posting at Crosswalk, and am very happy to have found a Christian sight. I am hoping that someone may have some advice or ideas to help me with my daughter. She is 14 years old, and angry at me all of the time. We homeschool, and almost every assignment I give her in school ends with her having a meltdown and declaring that I am pushing her too hard. The curriculum I use is carefully chosen to meet each of my children's needs, and I try to see that each child is challenged according to their abilities. However, it is not just school that poses a problem with her. She protests everytime she is asked to do something. Everyday she blows up and screams at someone in our home. She is defiant, angry, and just very difficult to understand. We have tried everything!!!! I have prayed, read books, seen counselors, begged, cried, grounded, disciplined, and given in. I am even starting to question whether or not I am going to homeschool her next year. She says that she just wants me to leave her alone. She loves to read and has no interest outside of sitting alone in her room. She is very talented in many areas, but refuses to believe me or dad. I have searched for outside activities(dance class, drama, cooking) that would hopefully engage her, but to no avail. Help! My pastor's wife has even tried to talk to her, but has gotten nowhere. Is anyone dealing with a similiar situation?



stateofgrace -> RE: defiant daughter (5/14/2008 10:49:45 AM)

home2excel - a few questions to help us understand your situation.

How long have you homeschooled your daughter? Is this a recent change for her?

Have there been any other major changes in her life recently?

Are there any outside activities that she is involved with at this time (sports, hobbies, etc.)?

You mentioned going to counselors and reading books to attempt to figure out what is going on. Have you considered having her evaluated by a psychiatrist?



manda59 -> RE: defiant daughter (5/14/2008 11:08:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
How long have you homeschooled your daughter? Is this a recent change for her?

Have there been any other major changes in her life recently?




Yes, I'd be interested in the answers to these questions too. I'd also like to know how she feels about being homeschooled, and whether these outbursts are all the time or just at certain times of the month.



bluestone -> RE: defiant daughter (5/14/2008 11:19:33 AM)

At fourteen, hormones are beginning to kick in, her body is changing and growing, and emotionally she is changing. She is also beginning the natural pull away from parents that is not rebellion, but independance. Completely normal..imagine all of that going on in your body at the same time!

Does she have any friends? How do other teens treat her? Is the church youth group accepting of her, or is she mistreated? Lack of friends to confide in can lead to built up frustrations in teens. They need to vent about parents once in a while, or they will vent AT parents. Your planning activities for her, classes and lessons, etc. won't do much good if she is basically an unhappy person at this point in life.

Homeschooling may not be the key issue. Her reaction to it may be a symptom of something else.



pbaribeault -> RE: defiant daughter (5/14/2008 11:25:30 AM)

I'd be tempted to find something really extraordinary for her to do with her summer... not sure what... something out of the house, maybe even out of the country... something that opens her life to something more than academic... Not always fun, but really challenging, faith enhancing, relationship building. My mind always runs to missions in this kind of situation -- but I'm sure there are other options.



Ps103 -> RE: defiant daughter (5/14/2008 11:44:12 AM)

Moving this to Homeschool Support, where I think you may find more people who may have been through the same thing.



PnJnKids -> RE: defiant daughter (5/14/2008 12:51:00 PM)

I am so sorry to hear how much of a hard frustrating time you are having. Parenting a teen is a whole new learning curve for most of us. I hope you find some solutions for you and your daughter here.

My only help to offer is this....

Anger is an unavoidable part of the process of becoming independent.

I know you said you've already read lots of books but in case you haven't heard of this...

Parenting Teens With Love and Logic by Cline and Fay - this is the one that I use at least once a week and sometimes every day. Great guidance on how to respectfully deal with anger and backtalk, etc without getting into a fight or argument. And when I say respectfully, that means to myself and my teen. Also how to handle those situations when they don't want to do something that needs to be done.

We are relaxed in our schooling. I let my kids read as much as they want as long as they are getting their jobs and math/language arts done. Science and History are so easy to catch up on and learn from reading that I have given them slack when they needed more downtime mentally or emotionally. I do also limit videogame, tv and computer time to 30 min per day and only if chores and school are done.


Another thought, my teens tend to be less angry with me when they get sufficient nutrition, rest, physical exercise and time with friends. I give them vitamins and protein shakes whenever possible!

Bless you in your struggle to succeed with your beautiful daughter!



cynthia -> RE: defiant daughter (5/14/2008 1:47:26 PM)

At fourteen, most girls are in a huge developmental phase, both physically and mentally. Their thinking is maturing, but not mature. Their eyes are being opened to so much, but they do not realize that all these things that are epiphanies to them are not epiphanies to their parents, as their parents already went through that stage years ago. There is a lot going on, but what children need during this stage is to know that they are loved and approved of. They also need to be told the following.

• Their thought processes are maturing and developing, which will cause they to gain new understanding of things on a whole new level. This is to be expected, but in order to process it correctly, they need the guidance of the their parents. I had my children memorize Proverbs 3. At fourteen, you’re not going to have much success by having her memorize scripture that she isn’t impressed by, but you can speak to her about what God’s words says about fools who do not listen to their parents and how important it is to hear the wisdom of one’s parents.

Kids her age do not realize that their parents have been through the epiphany stage. They needs to know what it is. It’s a normal part of development and doesn’t mean they are smarter than the rest of the crowd. To think so is an example of the folly that many fall into at their age. It is very common for children to get to this stage and turn away from what is right because they become full of themselves and then they become defiant. I believe that is the cause of many of these issues that parents face. If a child has an understanding that her parents are aware of what is going on with her and that they have been through it as a part of normal development, it may help bring humility to the situation.

Another thing that a child of fourteen needs to know is that she is approved of. There is a lot of turmoil going on during this stage of development. Even though they are gaining a new way of seeing the world, they are also trying to find their place in it and come to grips with their new body and new thinking. It can be very confusing, especially when one’s parents do not seem to be supportive.

Many kids this age think their parents are the enemy and are not supportive. I explained to my daughter, when she was entering this stage and getting quite frustrated, that we love and approve of her. I explained that she was moving into new territory and would be learning a whole new way of thinking and looking at things. During this stage we would have to correct her and help her along the way a lot. At first she would probably feel that we were being critical of her and constantly on her case, but that was not the point at all. The point was that she was going to need a lot of help and correction along the way. This didn’t mean that she was messing up. It meant that she was on a new learning path and would have to make corrections along the way. This would last for a couple of years, but as she continued to develop in maturity, she would become more comfortable with herself and her new world and would grow into a beautiful young woman ready to take responsibility for herself and her life. I would remind her of this periodically. It made a huge difference for her and me. I told her that I was on her side and would be right there with her to help her through. I told her I loved her and was proud of her and thought she was wonderful. She needed to be reminded of this regularly and still does.



home2excel -> RE: defiant daughter (5/14/2008 2:03:25 PM)

Thank you so much for replying back to me. We are at the end of our third year of homeschooling. She asked to be homeschooled after I began to homeschool our youngest child.
I have asked her if she wants to return to public school, and this starts a whole new battle. She says, "I'm never going back there and you can't make me, because if you won't teach me then Daddy will." I have reassured her that I want to teach her, but it is difficult because she will not work with me. She has one friend and one pen pal. She says that she doesn't want anymore. No, she does not participate in anything outside of her four walls or the four walls of her friend. Our church is new and very small. She is currently the only teen, and she does not get along well with the younger girls (they are 10). In any new situation, she hides in a book, or behind me. My husband is her step dad, and her dad lives in Charlotte. She see him about 1 time per month, and it has been this way since she was 6months old. She refers to my husband as "Daddy." He and I have been together since 2001. In November of 2006, our whole family was turned upside down when my great nephew came to live with us. He is 12 now, and has a lot of needs. We work very hard to meet his needs without neglecting the needs of our other children. There are 4 kids all together in one house. My daughter, my great nephew, and my sons ages 10 and 8. My 8 year has Down Syndrome, so he too has alot of needs. As you can see, this is a family that is very complex. Most of the issues in our home can be handled with some sense of rhyme or reason, but my daughter's emotions and insecurities are like a roller coaster ride: a few highs with a lot of lows. I know that she feels slighted at times, and I try to make days just for the two of us, but sometimes she is so mad at me that she doesn't want to do anything with me. Hope this answers some questions. Please feel free to ask any others that you may have.



bluestone -> RE: defiant daughter (5/14/2008 2:27:34 PM)

Would it be possible to get into a bit larger church with a good youth program? I am concerned that at fourteen when most girls travel in "packs", she seems to be a bit of a loner.

Was she picked on in public school?



stateofgrace -> RE: defiant daughter (5/14/2008 3:27:56 PM)

Wow, home2excel, you do have a full plate, and a complex home situation.

For one thing, I wouldn't be threatening her with sending her back to public school. I think in her situation she might see that as rejection or pushing her away.

I would be concerned about your daughter not having friends and outside-the-home activities at this point. I don't think the church situation is ideal for her, but I suspect that she wouldn't have the confidence to just jump into a youth group, either. I think it would be more ideal for your family to be involved in another church that would give your daughter and your nephew opportunities to be around other kids their age.

Perhaps if that's not possible, you can ask around (homeschooling groups, other local Christian friends) and find a bible study they could join? Is there a homeschooling coop where they could attend classes in one or two subjects? In our area we have a private school where homeschooling families can enroll their high-school-age students part or full time...maybe there's something like that in your area.

IMO, your daughter needs both social and physical activity. If there's no area of passion in her life for a sport or dance, maybe you could take an exercise or self-defense class together at the local Y. Maybe your husband could watch the two younger children one evening a week while the two of you do this sort of activity.

Here's another thought...since she likes to read, is there any possibility she'd like to volunteer a few hours a week at your local library? I knew a young lady who did this and really enjoyed it.



cynthia -> RE: defiant daughter (5/14/2008 4:04:51 PM)

I agree that it would be healthy for her to interact with other people in her age/developmental group. Our YMCA has homeschool PE that a lot of families enjoy. If they don't have that, there are lots of other YMCA programs that she could get involved in for both physical and social activity. Our family has used the YMCA for swimming lessons, but our class consisted only of our children, so it was only for physical development. In the future, I hope to get them involved in other activities with other kids at the YMCA.

You may be interested in an article I wrote called "How Homeschoolers Make Friends" There are plenty of ways that homeschooled children can be involved with others. Personally I would make a list and have her choose which one (s) she wanted to do. We have been involved in Girl Scouts, Cub Scouts, 4-H, church, homeschool support groups, park days and other things.

There are reasons why she is behaving this way. It appears that pride and self pity are probably at the top of the list. These are all too common ailments, especially when you think you are aware of things that you don't think others know (the epiphany thing) and then don't feel appeciated for who you are.

Being in a family means that you have to share resources and help each other. This is good for us. If you really think she isn't having her needs met, then ask the Lord to help you meet them. He meets all of our needs. However, if the real problem is that she doesn't want to pitch in and be part of what makes the family work, so everyone's needs are being met, that is an entirely different matter. You have to decide which it is.



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: defiant daughter (5/14/2008 4:29:20 PM)

Speaking from experience, I recommend that you stay in professional counseling (not just a pastor who does some counseling).



lifeisgoodwgod -> RE: defiant daughter (5/14/2008 4:44:01 PM)

After reading your post, a couple of red flags came up. You said you are caring for your nephew and he has a lot of needs. Your down syndrome child has a lot of needs. Not to sound grim but are you spreading yourself a little too thin. Where are the nephew's parents? Does your daughter feel resentful and guilty for any feelings that she is being left out? I can see why she is angry. I have a friend who tends to "take in" children and has a tendency to spread herself too thin. This presents the problem that nothing she does is done to its best. No matter how much you try to give her the attention she needs she obviously needs something else. All the resentment, guilt, and hormones can wreck a young girls mind. I don't really feel it is a homeschool issue as much as something having to do with what she is interested in. Really think about what she loved before you had the nephew and the child with special needs. Go back to that and try to surprise her with something other than a "great curriculum". There is nothing wrong with her liking school. For example my dd loves foreign language and we had a discussion where I wanted her to take Spanish and she wanted Italian. We let her go with Italian and she loves it. By the way she is 14 as well. She has her moments also but never the outbursts you describe. Can she help you with household things such as budget, meal planning, shopping? Budget and shopping helps with math. Let her balance your checkbook. This would make her feel more trusted and independent. She loves to read, have her read one book of her choice (say for 30 min) and one book of your choice (for 30 min). My dd is always surprised that she is allowed to "adult" things. At bedtime snuggle (force her if you must) and read to her. We just finished Little Women. After we read we talk. It works so well to have a little time each day instead of a couple of times a week. Good luck and my prayers are with you.



Jenny-Fair -> RE: defiant daughter (5/15/2008 9:20:45 AM)

Could you and your DD go to lunch or coffee, just the two of you, once a week or so?



HSmom2 -> RE: defiant daughter (5/15/2008 10:38:24 AM)

Hi,

Welcome.[:D] ((((((Hugs)))))))))))

I'd say give her some mommy time. What time does she get up in the morning and how? Do you wake her? Do you wake the others? Are you up before her? If you are up before her, you wake her with love. Gently shake and say, "Wake up, honey", or "Time to get up, I love you". After she is out of bed you greet her with a hug or two and tell her you love her. If the first time you see her in the morning she is fully dressed, you look at her and smile and say "Good Morning, sweetie! Don't you look nice! How did you sleep? Come and give me a hug." If you can, find a way to spend five minutes alone with her each morning, if not just do the loving waking and greeting. Let her know she is important to you.

I like the idea of you and her getting away together. Also how much of the care of the other children is she expected to help with?

Meet with her at least once a week and talk to her/get her to talk to you. Wait for her to open up. Ask her what she thinks about things. Listen. Pray with her, pray for her, pray for her concerns. Do a Bible reading with her. Include her with you, when you can. For example if you usually shop alone, include her, if you exercise alone, include her, if you go to the beauty shop (I know you may be too busy for this, but this is something you could do together) take her to get her hair done too.

Does she have a jounal or diary? Encourage her to write about her feelings. Just a few thoughts, please don't think that I think you aren't being a loving mom, just as the others pointed out - very busy. I know as moms we tend to let things slide that aren't a priority. Your daughter's anger says to me that she doesn't think she is one of yours.

You could talk with her and ask her, can you tell me why you seem to be so angry? Then wait for her to answer.

Many blessings to you,
hsmom2



cynthia -> RE: defiant daughter (5/15/2008 11:02:55 AM)

Does she say what she's angry about? Do you get angry back at her? If she is not already telling you exactly what she is angry about, you could ask her. Something like, "Honey, what's wrong? You sound angry," can go a long way in opening the lines of communication and resolving conflict, as long as you listen and don't get angry back or allow yourself to get defensive.



home2excel -> RE: defiant daughter (5/15/2008 6:38:45 PM)

If I ask her to tell me about what is bothering her or making her angry, she tells me that I am bothering her and she wouldn't be in a bad mood if I wasn't bothering her. On the good days, I jump in with both feet. I read to her, play games with her, and make the most of the time we are spending together. When she is pushing me away, I respect her right to be upset at whatever has upset her. Her counselor says that she lashes out at me because I am safe and she knows that I will always love her no matter what happens. My husband agrees with this. It is just so hard to see her so mad, and not be able to reach her.



cynthia -> RE: defiant daughter (5/15/2008 7:34:15 PM)

That sounds frustrating. If my daughter came off on me like that, I would insist that she improve her attitude or face consequences. It's not safe to treat other people rudely or to disrespect one's parents. I would tell her that she is not a baby and if she expects to be treated as someone who is more mature, that she will have to act like someone who is more mature.



sen10tious -> RE: defiant daughter (5/15/2008 9:01:49 PM)

I have a slightly, no, probably dramatically different viewpoint on the “friends issue” than some of the other posters have. If your daughter has the personality of a natural-born-hermit, then one friend and one pen pal will meet a basic minimum requirement—one to listen, and one to give an alternative viewpoint. Some perfectly normal people are not comfortable in packs and gangs and groups. I would not make her feel bad or weird about not wanting to be part of a crowd.
That is not to say that she doesn’t need outside contact though; and contacts that make her feel useful, important, and worthy are best. One of the usual benefits of friends is that they make you feel worthwhile—but there are lots of other ways to receive that feeling too.

quote:

She is very talented in many areas, but refuses to believe me or dad. I have searched for outside activities(dance class, drama, cooking) that would hopefully engage her, but to no avail.

I think you are on the right track here, but since she doesn’t believe you or her dad, you are going to have to search for a different source that she will believe.

What kinds of volunteer work are available where you live? Are you part of a Down’s group or do you know another family with a Down’s child who could really use a babysitter or mother’s helper who knew something about those special needs? If she likes animals is there a horse farm or animal hospital where she could volunteer two or three hours a week and take instruction from another adult? Any Candy Striper program? (Again, a situation where she would be earning approval from another adult besides her parents.) Not too many places hire 14 year-olds, but the Renaissance Festival nearest us will hire girls that age to work at the concession stands (six weeks of weekends) and a paycheck tends to prove you have ‘worth.’ How about a job at the church? Since she is the only teen there, is there some service she could offer that would give her a sense of being an asset to the church by meeting a special need, such as cooking for a shut-in once a week? (sort of like grandma-sitting instead of baby-sitting) Or could she be in charge of a Bible Story Time once a month where she works with the children’s teacher to coordinate the topic and then dresses in character and reads a Bible story to the little ones? She could get school credit for some of these things. You could frame it different ways; a Life Experiences class, or a Community Service credit (which looks really good on college applications.)

I think knowing some adult other than her mom appreciates her would help the attitude because it would also appeal to her emerging independence.



creationtalk -> RE: defiant daughter (5/16/2008 7:42:14 PM)

I can empathize with your daughter. I was a PS student and had few/no friends in school. Even now, years later I have few very close friends.

When I was young (teen years) I did not fit into my family well. The family would decide to do something. I was not interested and did not want to go. I would then either be blackmailed into going, not enjoy it and be told that I had ruined the trip for everyone or I would refuse to go, enjoy what ever I did alone, but when the family returned, be told that no one could enjoy the outing because they were thinking about me there alone.

So when you put a child that is naturally happy alone in counseling to find out why she likes being alone, you are telling her that there is something wrong with her, that she should be different. But perhaps this is the way God made her and by trying to make her be something other than what she is, you are frustrating her.

From the sounds of it, you daughter had some really horrible experiences at school that have colored her view of herself. I know that when I was 14 my self-esteem was rock bottom because of things that happened at school that I never told my parents about...and a lot of it was because I did not see the world the way most people do and I did not respond the way most would expect. My mother would always tell me that I was bright, talented, etc...and I couldn't believe it. And I'm not surprised you daughter has trouble believing that she has talents and worth if you are taking her to counseling because she is not just like all the others. (If I'm reading more into your posts than is there, I apologize. It's very hard to accurately assess a situation with little information.)

I would suggest continuing to encourage your daughter and loving her. Try to make sure that she has something that is uniquely hers--it could be an outside activity, it could be a private space, it could be something she enjoys. I would also make sure that she is allowed to "be herself" as long as that does no harm to herself or others. I would also encourage her to find out who Jesus is to her.



3forHim -> RE: defiant daughter (5/20/2008 9:02:57 PM)

Hi~

Wow, my heart goes out to you. There are some good suggestions here as well. One thing I have found extremely helpful is a book by Henry Cloud and John Townsend called Boundaries with Kids. It really helped me to know how to empathize and affirm their feelings AND to know how to set a boundary that expects respect. In other words, I tell my kids they can be angry and I also tell them that if they want to speak disrespectfully I will no longer be able to listen. However, being angry and speaking respectfully, I will hear them out. Anyway, the book says it a lot better! [:)]



Karaboo2 -> RE: defiant daughter (5/21/2008 11:50:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3forHim
Wow, my heart goes out to you. There are some good suggestions here as well. One thing I have found extremely helpful is a book by Henry Cloud and John Townsend called Boundaries with Kids. It really helped me to know how to empathize and affirm their feelings AND to know how to set a boundary that expects respect. In other words, I tell my kids they can be angry and I also tell them that if they want to speak disrespectfully I will no longer be able to listen. However, being angry and speaking respectfully, I will hear them out. Anyway, the book says it a lot better! [:)]


I'll second that about the Boundaries book ... I just picked it up a week ago and am currently reading it ... it makes a LOT of sense, and should be relatively easy to implement ... just realize there will be some initial 'rebound (increased rebellion) effect' as dd realizes that "the times, they are a'changin"



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