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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 5/20/2008 12:51:18 PM
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Marcus.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ik3900
quote:
ORIGINAL: freakofnature
ik3900; Can I ask you then that if you don't wish to be "lumped in" with all of the militant athiest, what are you doing to stand up against those who give all athiest a bad name?
Hi freakofnature,
I think the main problem is that as atheists we don't have a defined set of rules or indeed any doctrine under which we might unite or call a common purpose. That lack of a positive identification with other atheists means that rather than a collective, we are really just a bunch of individuals who potentially have nothing in common other than a lack of theistic belief. On that basis I can't really say to another atheist "hey, you're being a bad atheist" or "you're letting the side down". I have to call them as I see them. Some of the arguments are justified, others completely over the top.
Apologies if that didn't make any sense, I just had an exam and my brain is fried!
It made perfect sense to me.
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 5/20/2008 12:54:52 PM
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davemiller7
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Here's a great site that is fighting the tyranny of the atheist minority.
-Dave
American Center for Law and Justice
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 5/20/2008 1:14:39 PM
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Marcus.
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I think that the article would have been better with a title using militant instead of minority because it seems it's the rare few who want silence speech or expression. I don't mind other points of view but I do mind the condescending attitude that shows up every once in a while.
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 5/20/2008 2:39:56 PM
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davemiller7
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Unfortunately, I think it's more than every once in a while. Seems quite often to me.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
I think that the article would have been better with a title using militant instead of minority because it seems it's the rare few who want silence speech or expression. I don't mind other points of view but I do mind the condescending attitude that shows up every once in a while.
_____________________________
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 5/21/2008 12:32:32 AM
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Marcus.
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What I would be interested to find out is how the militant folks are around believers. Condescending? Rude? Beligerent? Polite? Respectful of their opinions? It would be interesting to know if they are the way they come across in the media.
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 5/21/2008 3:22:54 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
quote:
Most people start off with the false premise that those asking for separation of church and state are atheists. I would venture that the majority are actually christians.
Evangel is right, non-believers of all stripes make up no more than around 10-14% of the population, but many more Christians want to keep religion out of school. And, if you had any sense, you would agree with them.
Take one quick look at the state of Christianity in the UK. Perhaps 30-35% of the population say they are Christians but the percentage of active participants is down well below 10%. That is what you risk getting when you remove the separation of church and state. There is no such thing in Britain and never has been and Christianity is all but dying out as a result. The vast majority of children go to state schools which are directly affiliated with Christian churches -- mainly Catholic and Church of England -- they have daily assemblies, with prayers and hymns and yet probably 80% of those children are agnostic or atheist when they leave.
If you really want that to happen here in the US, then go ahead and integrate religion back into schools. Luckily for those who are against the separation of church and state, a majority of Christians see it as a sensible policy that will ensure the vitality of Christianity in the years ahead.
Given that faith comes by hearing it would seem more of a case of what is being taught not that religion itself being in school is the cause of children being or atheist when they leave. If sound biblical principles are taught the only reason people would turn away is because they see it as foolishness and the fault for that cannot be laid at what is being taught if it's biblically sound.
John
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 5/31/2008 2:40:17 AM
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scutus
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quote:
What I would be interested to find out is how the militant folks are around believers. Condescending? Rude? Beligerent? Polite? Respectful of their opinions? It would be interesting to know if they are the way they come across in the media.
Your problem isn't with atheism, it's with anti-theism. To be more specific, vocal or 'militant' anti-theists, because many anti-theists aren't vocal at all and are just like you in how they deal with other religious people. For example, they may 'hate' the religion, but they love the 'sinner'.
Vocal anti-theists who rail against religion might get on some people's nerves, especially if they use condescending language and arrogance.
But anti-theists aren't usually the ones challenging religious influences in schools or in the government, even though they might be considered the prime suspects. Most of the time, atheists who challenge the breach between state and church are not anti-theists or otherwise vocal. They're just the ordinary people next door.
< Message edited by scutus -- 5/31/2008 2:56:58 AM >
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 5/31/2008 10:11:02 PM
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Bobby
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quote:
ORIGINAL: freakofnature
The problem as I see it is that unfortunately, schools are teaching their own brand of religion, it is called secularism. I think also, however, that the rights of individuals to pray and read bible passages in schools and public arenas are what is the bigger problem. No, I don't want a teacher, principal, school lunch lady or janitor leading the school prays as their doctrine may or may not be biblical. HOWEVER, it is an individuals right to be able to read and pray and that has been at least hampered by the secularist.
As far as why the minority/athiest get such a loud voice is mainly because yes, they have the funds and generally... they are running our institutions of higher learning. They are usually the well educated, professor elitist that have contacts and available funds to speak the loudest. But groups such as the American Center for Law and Justice run by none other than Jay Sekulow are fighting back. They do well to represent the Christian voice.
Not only do they run our schools, they have been influenced through leaders such as John Dewey, whose philosophy of "no right, no wrong, it's how you feel" that has been the rule of schools, and the rules established by generations taught under his idealism. Sadly, this has created a problem worse than what we thought.
They push it through everywhere in Hollywood, and we're paying the price. When anything that's a lie is tolerated but the truth is not allowed, what are we saying?
At Christmastime, we see where kids are singing "winter" music of everything but the Christ, and even at church, people will be offended by singing of Händel, Franck, and other witty sacred masterpieces, but they will accept kids dancing to secular pieces at church!
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 6/12/2008 1:01:17 PM
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ak2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
I was really surprised that there are only 1.6% atheists! It seems as if there are alot more.
Those are only the ones who specifically identify as atheist. Count agnostics and "no religion" and it's more like 15%, iirc.
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 6/12/2008 1:28:32 PM
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atlas
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I am an atheist. The problem is that many (not all) christians go around trying to force what they believe on everyone else. And then when some try and stop this, the christian majority acts as if they are being persecuted. I don't deny that some of this does go on, but it occurs far more often from christians to atheists than from atheists to christians.
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 6/12/2008 4:31:01 PM
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tafkam
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quote:
The problem is that many (not all) christians go around trying to force what they believe on everyone else
Okay, I'll bite: Exactly what are we attempting to "force" on everyone else?
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 6/12/2008 4:52:05 PM
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Marcus.
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Evangelizing maybe? as Jesus told the disciples to do.
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 6/12/2008 5:15:24 PM
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atlas
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The belief that everyone who is not a christian is going to hell. The dismissing of science for religious dogma in public schools. And yes, "evangelizing". Believe it or not, not everyone believes that hell exists or that a god exists. I have no problem with christianity, as long as you keep it in your churches and your homes.
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 6/12/2008 5:25:08 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
The belief that everyone who is not a christian is going to hell. The dismissing of science for religious dogma in public schools. And yes, "evangelizing". Believe it or not, not everyone believes that hell exists or that a god exists. I have no problem with christianity, as long as you keep it in your churches and your homes.
We all have beliefs that we wish people would keep to themselves - but in the US at least we aren't required to limit our expression of those beliefs to certain private venues.
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“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 6/13/2008 6:02:21 AM
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Strider33
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It depends.
Where is the boundary line between trying to persuade others to believe as you do, and trying to force your beliefs on someone else?
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 6/13/2008 9:27:47 AM
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davemiller7
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Can you honestly say that movies and television programs that, in very subtle ways, poke fun at Christians and Christianity, or in much more blatant ways, promote the concepts of homosexuality, adultery, the occult, etc. are not trying to force their (Hollywood, major tv networks) beliefs on us Christians? It sure seems like almost every movie or tv show has one or more of those elements in them.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: atlas
I am an atheist. The problem is that many (not all) christians go around trying to force what they believe on everyone else. And then when some try and stop this, the christian majority acts as if they are being persecuted. I don't deny that some of this does go on, but it occurs far more often from christians to atheists than from atheists to christians.
_____________________________
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 6/13/2008 1:21:55 PM
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atlas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Can you honestly say that movies and television programs that, in very subtle ways, poke fun at Christians and Christianity, or in much more blatant ways, promote the concepts of homosexuality, adultery, the occult, etc. are not trying to force their (Hollywood, major tv networks) beliefs on us Christians? It sure seems like almost every movie or tv show has one or more of those elements in them.
-Dave
Hollywood is not trying to force anything on anyone. They just find a story that they think people will pay to see and then make it into a movie. If people start only going to Christian movies then those are what they will be making.
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 6/13/2008 1:29:04 PM
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atlas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
This one you can't get around. It is basic doctrine as Jesus taught. There are several references to there only being one way into Heaven and to be with God. They all center around acceptance and belief in Jesus as God's Only Begotten Son. There are also teachings that the way to Heaven is very straight and narrow and most won't find their way their. There are other teachings on the way to destruction being wide and easily accessible.
But what I'm saying is that most people don't believe in it. When you tell someone that God is sending them to hell but that he still loves them all you are going to do is anger them.
quote:
Believe it or not many believers have been trained in the sciences and still don't accept some of the scientific assumptions underlying evolution. There are too many holes in the theory. I was a geology major myself. A friend from mechanical engineering said based based on what he learned in thermodynamics, evolution appeared to violate some of the laws from that field, an impossibility he claimed.
What holes? Evolution is one of the most well founded scientific theories. But even if evolution were proven false that does not make Christianity true. As such science should be taught in school. Religion should be taught at church.
quote:
Believe it or not we know this.  But we would be guilty before God if we didn't spread the news. IMO hearing that God loves you and wants you to be with Him is not as objectionable as some of the tripe in our entertainment media. I don't like the idea that I have to be muzzled and loose my right to freedom of speech to be in good standing with folks who disagreed. I get to hear about secular humanism far more everyday than I hear about any religion in general.
You will be guilty only if he exists. And everyone has heard "the news" by now. Except in some parts of South america or Africa, if you really want to "spread the message" then why don't you all go down there?
quote:
Christianity isn't supposed to be kept in the closet but we are commanded to spread it throughout the entire world. It's basic purpose is to be passed on.
Which is why so many are opposed to it.
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 6/13/2008 1:36:12 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
But what I'm saying is that most people don't believe in it. When you tell someone that God is sending them to hell but that he still loves them all you are going to do is anger them.
Well, most atheists don't believe it; most Christians believe it to some degree.
And our free speech rights aren't limited by what might anger others.
quote:
You will be guilty only if he exists. And everyone has heard "the news" by now. Except in some parts of South america or Africa, if you really want to "spread the message" then why don't you all go down there?
Actually, there are probably in sheer numbers many more Christians in Africa and South America (and Asia) than in much of the West.
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“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 6/13/2008 1:42:49 PM
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atlas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
But what I'm saying is that most people don't believe in it. When you tell someone that God is sending them to hell but that he still loves them all you are going to do is anger them.
Well, most atheists don't believe it; most Christians believe it to some degree.
And our free speech rights aren't limited by what might anger others.
If you tell someone that there is an invisible person that will send them to hell if they don't love them, and try and point out why they deserve hell, then of course they will be angry. But I agree, this should not undermine freedom of speech.
quote:
quote:
You will be guilty only if he exists. And everyone has heard "the news" by now. Except in some parts of South america or Africa, if you really want to "spread the message" then why don't you all go down there?
Actually, there are probably in sheer numbers many more Christians in Africa and South America (and Asia) than in much of the West.
But everyone in America has heard the story so there is no point in continuing to preach it.
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 6/13/2008 1:46:27 PM
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tafkam
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quote:
The belief that everyone who is not a christian is going to hell.
And that is being forced on you.....how?
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 6/13/2008 1:57:16 PM
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Jeff_from_Kentucky
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quote:
ORIGINAL: atlas
But everyone in America has heard the story so there is no point in continuing to preach it.
That is not true! I have worked at inner city missions and there are many people out there in our cities (suburbs and rural areas too) who have NEVER heard the Gospel of Christ. Some of them are immigrants but the majority were born and raised in this country and they have no idea who Jesus is. The truth is, the United States is one of the largest mission fields in the world. According to the North American Missions Board, only 25% of Americans are born again Christians. That means that out of 300 Million people, 225 million are not Christians.
THAT is why we must continue to preach in this country! We must reach the lost as Jesus commanded.
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RE: Tyranny of the atheist minority - 6/13/2008 2:05:55 PM
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atlas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeff_from_Kentucky
quote:
ORIGINAL: atlas
But everyone in America has heard the story so there is no point in continuing to preach it.
That is not true! I have worked at inner city missions and there are many people out there in our cities (suburbs and rural areas too) who have NEVER heard the Gospel of Christ. Some of them are immigrants but the majority were born and raised in this country and they have no idea who Jesus is. The truth is, the United States is one of the largest mission fields in the world. According to the North American Missions Board, only 25% of Americans are born again Christians. That means that out of 300 Million people, 225 million are not Christians.
THAT is why we must continue to preach in this country! We must reach the lost as Jesus commanded.
I know that many people are not Christians. People are questioning it and finding it to be nothing more than a legend. I can only hope the trend continues.
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