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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 1:34:01 PM
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WaitingforBoaz
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From: The Hundred Acre Wood
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
quote:
ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
i think benelchi stated it really well. i guess people perceive that it's wimpy to try to get to know a woman before pursuing a deeper relationship rather than just acting flirty and pouncing on every girl regardless of yokedness that crosses your path and if she responds just take it as far as you can.
It's not only NOT wimpy, it's my preference. 
I don't flirt with men unless I'm in one-on-one relationship with them, and I don't care for men to flirt with me unless they're in a one-on-one relationship with me.
I also don't believe in the concept of dating as it applies to today's definition. I think dating is all backwards. For me, dating should come after 2 people have gotten to know each other and have decided they want to explore the relationship on a deeper, more committed level; NOT to shop and test unknown or semi-unknown waters.
And the neat thing about my philosophy is that my life has backed up my words.
I have experienced "dating" as most people define it . . . and no thank you; not ever again.
Even when I did "date" as the word is popularly defined, I didn't like it and it didn't feel "quite right."
I have also experienced "dating" as I define it . . . I'm specifically thinking of CS . . . and if I ever date again, that will definitely be the way I'll do it. Before I even met CS (years before), I had long since decided in my mind the parameters for dating. I had determined that if I met someone, I simply wanted it to be someone in my everyday life doing everyday things where we gradually and perhaps not even intentionally got to know each other on deeper levels. I didn't want to participate in focalized 2 or 3 hour segments of time where two people who may not know each other that well are intentionally checking each other out and comparing them against preconceived lists and notions. For me, that just never seemed "real" and it always seemed way to romanticized and with way too many false expectations and hopes.
Before anyone decides to become offended, please note that I have written this entire post based on how I choose to live my life; not based from a standpoint of trying to tell others how to live their life.
HIS Peace and HIS Joy, y'all
In a nutshell the bolded area is my definition of "dating" as well.
If I could star it I would.
I don't know the "starring rules" but if a Mod. sees this and it fits in the parameters please star this post.
I have no dating horror stories and I am still friends with guys I dated, some of whom are married to my closest friends.
Think about it...when you see positive results...you must be doing something right.
_____________________________
Nadine
"It's like everything good collided today" quote from my 8yr old daughter
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 1:36:31 PM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
Just saying this has been my experience. The best relationships I have been in have started out with us being friends. I realize it isn't the most popular thought expressed here in singles. In fact, I think I'm in a tiny minority. It's what works for me.
It's not that it's unpopular. It's that it is unworkable for the vast majority of people. Once a friend, never a date tends to be the rule for most people. Ladder theory again.
Part of who I am . . . I simply don't subscribe to popular theories. In fact, it wasn't until last year, here in Singles' Folder, that I had ever even heard of the ladder theory.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 1:37:47 PM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
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quote:
ORIGINAL: followtheLeader
quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
quote:
ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
i think benelchi stated it really well. i guess people perceive that it's wimpy to try to get to know a woman before pursuing a deeper relationship rather than just acting flirty and pouncing on every girl regardless of yokedness that crosses your path and if she responds just take it as far as you can.
It's not only NOT wimpy, it's my preference.
I don't flirt with men unless I'm in one-on-one relationship with them, and I don't care for men to flirt with me unless they're in a one-on-one relationship with me.
I also don't believe in the concept of dating as it applies to today's definition. I think dating is all backwards. For me, dating should come after 2 people have gotten to know each other and have decided they want to explore the relationship on a deeper, more committed level; NOT to shop and test unknown or semi-unknown waters.
And the neat thing about my philosophy is that my life has backed up my words.
I have experienced "dating" as most people define it . . . and no thank you; not ever again.
Even when I did "date" as the word is popularly defined, I didn't like it and it didn't feel "quite right."
I have also experienced "dating" as I define it . . . I'm specifically thinking of CS . . . and if I ever date again, that will definitely be the way I'll do it. Before I even met CS (years before), I had long since decided in my mind the parameters for dating. I had determined that if I met someone, I simply wanted it to be someone in my everyday life doing everyday things where we gradually and perhaps not even intentionally got to know each other on deeper levels. I didn't want to participate in focalized 2 or 3 hour segments of time where two people who may not know each other that well are intentionally checking each other out and comparing them against preconceived lists and notions. For me, that just never seemed "real" and it always seemed way to romanticized and with way too many false expectations and hopes.
Before anyone decides to become offended, please note that I have written this entire post based on how I choose to live my life; not based from a standpoint of trying to tell others how to live their life.
HIS Peace and HIS Joy, y'all
In a nutshell the bolded area is my definition of "dating" as well.
If I could star it I would.
I don't know the "starring rules" but if a Mod. sees this and it fits in the parameters please star this post.
I have no dating horror stories and I am still friends with guys I dated, some of whom are married to my closest friends.
Think about it...when you see positive results...you must be doing something right.
Thank you, Nadine!
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 1:44:25 PM
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mutinywxgirl
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And one again we get into the difference between men and women when it comes to dating.
This in not the topic of this thread. It is on Christian men being wimpy. If you wish to discuss the other, then there are more than a few threads currently available.
_____________________________
When blood and water hit the ground.
Walls we couldn't move came crashing down.
We were free and made alive.
The day true love died. The day true love died.
Lisa is happy THE ROWDIES ARE BACK!
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 1:46:17 PM
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AngelInWaiting1983
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I can actually say that the "bad boy" type may be interesting in the movies, but I prefer what you are calling "wimpy". I like a guy who is sensitive and connected.
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Reflecting with Terri
Somewhere there's someone who dreams of your smile and finds in your presence a life that's worth while. So when you are lonely, remember its true; somebody, somewhere is thinking of you.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 1:49:53 PM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
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I don't care for neither extreme. A man, a real man, is going to have a good balance of both characteristics.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 1:59:13 PM
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woodwind228
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A real man (or woman) should strive to meet the balance/requirements that the Bible sets forth for us. If some says that's wimpy, take it up with God. After all, He wrote The Book.
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*~* Susan *~*
These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world. --John 16:33 KJV
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 2:10:34 PM
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Psalms274
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quote:
And one again we get into the difference between men and women when it comes to dating.
To be honest, I do not believe that this is off topic. Mostly because I do not believe it is a man/women issue as far as differences are concerned. I know just as many men who believe friends first is best as I do those who go right in before getting to know someone. The same is true as far as women I know.
I do think Benelchi makes an excellent point. There are those who perceive a man who choses to get to know a gal first before asking them out as wimpy. In reality it takes an enormous amount of character to do so. There is much less risk involved in "making a move" with someone you hardly know. But it takes an enormous amount of courage to approach a friend in whom you would like to take to another level ... there is much more to lose in the ladder example, and the guy who is willing to be friends first is not wimpy in my book. I have read many these articles (coming from Christian writers) stating that men are wimps because they take so long to ask and I do not agree with these writers at all ...
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I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 2:12:27 PM
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mutinywxgirl
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When we start discussing being friends vs not being friends - then yes, it is off topic.
_____________________________
When blood and water hit the ground.
Walls we couldn't move came crashing down.
We were free and made alive.
The day true love died. The day true love died.
Lisa is happy THE ROWDIES ARE BACK!
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 2:12:58 PM
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Focusing
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I think the concept of "wimpy" comes as a result of preconceived expectations ... what we "expect" from others.
How do we come to these expectations?
That's something that needs to be considered. Are we classifying someone based upon one thing they did? Are we not looking any deeper than that? Are we misunderstanding their actions? So often, we classify others based upon one thing ... a quick mental judgment. ("He's in a pink shirt, therefore he's a wimp" ... okay, total sarcasm there, but just because I don't care for a man in pink doesn't make him a wimp.)
Are we expecting others to fall into some acceptable social "norm"? Who decides that? The person who puts it out there and makes it sound right?
So, the concept of "wimpy" ... what is that? Who defines what "wimpy" is?
To me (and I am referring to me only, because only I can decide what wimpy means to me ... each of us needs to come to that determination for ourselves), it can mean several things: one of which is a lack of patience ... wanting to get to the "good stuff" right off the bat ... which to me includes, but is not limited to, wanting to be my boyfriend right away, rather than waiting and seeing whether we can be friends on a deep level. I want someone to grow old with. There will certainly come a time when romance is not the order of the moment, of the day, of the season we're in in our lives. If he can't be my friend now, someone I can share my thoughts and life with, whose arms I can run to when I need a hug, whose company I can be comfortable with in total silence, the person I run to in happy times and in sad times, the person whom I can trust completely ... how will I ever know our relationship will develop to that level once the romance and passion have settled down? I see this quality in a man as a major strength, and one of the most important factors that defines whether or not he is "wimpy".
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<-- the prelude to a summer dust storm
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 2:13:16 PM
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WaitingforBoaz
Posts: 3350
Joined: 2/11/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
CAUTION: I really know there are two perspectives to this topic, and I really do understand (as far as I guy can) some of the very legitimate difficulties that single Christian women face in dating. The following is not meant to bash Christian women, but just to shed light on the topic for a Christian man's perspective. Please read it in that light.
I will keep that in mind. 
quote:
My experiences over the last few years have really taught me that this is something that many Christian woman say often, but often really don't mean. It is often the Christian men who choose to pursue women in this way who wrongly get labeled "wimpy"; the "real" men many Christian women choose to date are those that will jump right into a heavy dating relationship with them without knowing a thing about them, and caring nothing about the fact that they are Christians.
I know that this is true. However, A real Christian man would not truly want to date that person.
I did not kiss my husband until I was engaged to him. Keeping my next relationship pure is extremely important to me. Are there many women out there with that focus? Maybe not, but a truly soldout "real" man of God desiring to keep his relationships pure is rare as well.
quote:
The reality is that Christian men who do stand up and have a backbone, but draw lines in a relationship based on their Christian values are often the ones that don't get the dates.
I believe they don't get dates because the women they desire to attract are as rare as they are.
quote:
because they believe the physical part of a relationship should reflect the commitment they are willing to give, they draw boundaries around their relationship that get them wrongly labeled "wimpy".
I could not tell if this was about commitment level or intimacy level.
quote:
One of the reasons I believe that many Christian women do choose to date non-Christian men is simply that it is far easier to get into a hot and heavy relationship with non-Christian men because their values don't require them to have any boundaries, and often it is a reflection of Christian women not being willing to wait for the godly relationships to develop. As a Christian man, I cannot begin to tell you how very many times I have talked to Christian women who have told me that they have "learned" that being "unequally" yoked was a bad mistake that they will never do again, only to watch those same women choose another "unequally" yoked relationship a couple of months later because the Christian men wouldn't "date" them. As a Christian man, I want to know that a woman has a track record of not compromising her standards to get a date, and those just out of an "unequally yoked" relationship really are "undatable" for a while until their actions have shown that their repentance was genuine; too often a little time shows that it was not.
They will be few and far between, but they are out there. I hope to find one.(male that is )
quote:
I think one of the things that has changed in our society over the last few decades that significantly contributes to this problem is that our society used to value men who would pursue women in a respectful way that honored and valued women, but today a woman's value is almost entirely seen in terms of her sexuality, and the man that does not immediately peruse that aspect of the relationship in some way is seen as not having enough "backbone" to do so; too often Christian women seem to have bought into this lie. Sometimes I wish that women would realize how much backbone and strength of character it really takes a man to NOT pursue that aspect of a relationship.
The right woman, who is Godly and walking a walk similar to you own, will appreciate those thing in you and She will respect you immediately for it.
====================
quote:
I really do understand that there are Christian women who don't compromise godly standards and end up dateless because of it; however, the reality is that Christian men who do not compromise godly standards often end up just as dateless because of the boundaries they will not cross. I believe that a big contributor to the "dateless" problem is that far too many Christian men and women compromise godly boundaries when dating and take what they believe is the easy path to a relationship, and it leaves very few around who are really "datable" to those who really want their dating life to reflect their relationship in Christ.
So so true.
...But, I will let them take their easy path. I do not want someone who will compromise, before or after marriage. So actually, they are doing me a favor by showing their true character so I can look elsewhere. 
_____________________________
Nadine
"It's like everything good collided today" quote from my 8yr old daughter
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 2:42:57 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mutinywxgirl
When we start discussing being friends vs not being friends - then yes, it is off topic.
not sure if you've read the whole thread or not lisa but a premise multiple people offered forward was that a big difference between being wimpy or a bad boy is partly in the approach to the woman. it was further espoused that one trait that is considered wimpy is that these men may take a friends first approach while a bad boy will just swoop in with less hesitation. if we can't define wimpy and bad boy as the OP didn't do, then what are we discussing in this thread?
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 2:46:59 PM
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mutinywxgirl
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My concern is over the thread going totally off topic and into the friends/no friends dating, ladder theory stuff. That isn't about being wimpy. That's about preferences in dating.
See the difference?
_____________________________
When blood and water hit the ground.
Walls we couldn't move came crashing down.
We were free and made alive.
The day true love died. The day true love died.
Lisa is happy THE ROWDIES ARE BACK!
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 2:54:57 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
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if this thread isn't about preference of women wanting to date wimps vs bad boys, which includes different approaches each takes then i think the whole thread is offtopic but i won't reply any more.
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[Low-Carb] Chocolate Peanut Butter Cheesecake
Photoblogging my life
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 4:38:59 PM
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Elena1030
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I don't want to date and marry a bad boy or a wimpy guy.
Those are labels. I don't want someone who truly is so "two-dimensional" in character, personality, and zoë-vibrancy that he warrants merely a stereotypical label.
I want a good man. A real, breathing human being of the male variety! A unique individual. 
A man after God's own heart pursues Christ, practices sacrificial love, bears eternal fruit for the Kingdom, exhibits the fruit of the Spirit, and doesn't worry about the world's definitions...doesn't limit himself to merely what society says is manhood, masculinity, and manliness.
And I don't need a stereotype or an ideal. As I said.... a real, breathing human being, not an idealized one only met with in fairy tales, fictions, and fantasies. A unique individual.
Each Christian man (and woman) is an individual. And to keep studying the "masses" within Christendom to try to figure out what's "wrong" with people so that we can fix it, is ridiculous.... EXCEPT as pertains to how the lies and half-truths have messed with our freedom to please God by faith through love in the many creative ways open to us human beings.
The answer is not to swing the pendulum back to some idealized era's notions of masculinity and femininity (or wimpiness/strength/whatever) but to seek Christ and His kingdom....
and all these things
including "what is a man" and "what is a woman"
will be added unto us.
In Him, I am Andrea. You are you. He is him. She is her.
I suppose that only when we are clothed with the imperishable---after we pass from this earthly life and enter into God's realm---will we be fully able to relate to one another without these trappings of worldly/fleshly definitions..... but until then, LOVE can move us along that trajectory.
What say you?
_____________________________
"We're not odd, we're just over-expressive."—Helen in Howard's End
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 8:24:50 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
Just saying this has been my experience. The best relationships I have been in have started out with us being friends. I realize it isn't the most popular thought expressed here in singles. In fact, I think I'm in a tiny minority. It's what works for me.
It's not that it's unpopular. It's that it is unworkable for the vast majority of people. Once a friend, never a date tends to be the rule for most people. Ladder theory again.
John,
This is one area where I again would have to disagree with you. I would agree that pursuing a friendship first is almost unworkable in todays society, but only because it is so unpopular and not because it is inherently unworkable. In decades past this was far more the normal way of getting to know someone of the opposite sex, and didn't really begin to change much until the 1950's.
To me the issue of choosing to be friends first isn't so much about expressing or not expressing a romantic interest, but about knowing where the lines of the relationship are drawn. If marriage is a posibility, then friendship really becomes important; who wants to marry someone who they wouldn't want to be friends with? Whether you call it "courtship", "dating", "friends first", or anything else, I believe that until you are ready to make a commitment to the woman whom your are "dating" you should treat her as only a friend and until you are willing to commit your life to her before God in marriage, there should not be anything truly sexual in the relationship. The physical relationship should always be a reflection of the commitment already made in the relationship, not a precursor to that commitment.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 8:46:21 PM
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Pauley464
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From: Washington, Indiana
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In my experience, I have been labeled a "wimp" on the first date/encounter by every woman I've dated simply because I don't treat women the way bad boys do. All of those women refused to go on a second date with me or took the time to find out if I really do have backbone or not. I treated them with respect and courtesy and was immediately labeled "wimp". I have asked this question on other threads and never got answers. "What is a woman expecting to happen on the first date to prove whether or not a man has a backbone?"
Women will always agree with us that it's possible for a man to hold true to his christian values and still have a backbone without being wimpy, yet many of these same women will turn their backs on good christian men and seek out relationships with unsaved bad boys who will inevitably treat them like dirt. The only thing that makes sense is that these women are seeking out and finding exactly what they want.
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There is nothing so important that it can't be put off until tomorrow.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 8:55:46 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
John,
This is one area where I again would have to disagree with you. I would agree that pursuing a friendship first is almost unworkable in todays society, but only because it is so unpopular and not because it is inherently unworkable. In decades past this was far more the normal way of getting to know someone of the opposite sex, and didn't really begin to change much until the 1950's.
Again I disagree. To the vast majority of people, (In practice, not in theory) Friends are people they wouldn't date if their life depended on it. "Lets just be friends" means "I'll never date you. You are not a potential to me".
From talking to my parents, who did their dating in the late forties/fifties, friends were just friends. You didn't date them, and therefore, didn't marry them.
Of course most social interaction back then was more correctly called courtship than dating but the fact still held that you didn't date your friends. That's one reason why they were friends, they failed at being potentials
quote:
To me the issue of choosing to be friends first isn't so much about expressing or not expressing a romantic interest, but about knowing where the lines of the relationship are drawn.
This is true. But you don't have to start as "friends" to have carefully delineated boundaries.
quote:
If marriage is a posibility, then friendship really becomes important; who wants to marry someone who they wouldn't want to be friends with?
You can be friends with anyone. Marriage requires a much closer dedication. You can be incredibly close friends with someone whom you could never be happily married to (without tons and tons of constant work)
quote:
Whether you call it "courtship", "dating", "friends first", or anything else, I believe that until you are ready to make a commitment to the woman whom your are "dating" you should treat her as only a friend and until you are willing to commit your life to her before God in marriage, there should not be anything truly sexual in the relationship.
It is true that there can be nothing sexual in the relationship before the wedding. However, if she's a "friend" then she's already been eliminated as a potential wife. Usually within the first date or two. That's the whole purpose of dating, to weed out those who aren't good mate potentials for you.
quote:
The physical relationship should always be a reflection of the commitment already made in the relationship, not a precursor to that commitment.
Exactly correct.
Some people seem to be operating under the assumption that dating equates to a physical relationship. Couldn't be further from the truth.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 9:06:48 PM
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John_O
Posts: 7130
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jlp1
This says it all in a nutshell, really good read
http://www.crosswalk.com/root/singles/11575328/page0/
That was a good read. Note the circumstance she most often uses. It's a guy who wants to get to know the girl. Not an established friend. By the time a guy becomes a close friend he's normally already blown his chances as she stops looking at him as a potential husband and starts looking at him as a friend.
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Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 9:41:24 PM
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Prairiehiker
Posts: 1083
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It's not so much about you become "undateable" unce you've been put in the friends zone, but it's more about how confusing it becomes, and there's so many potential for mixed messages when you don't clearly state your intention from the start. I can understand how you can become interested in your friend as you get to know them, but if you're already interested in someone and you only treat them as friends, chances are, you're already giving mixed signals.
Being just friends is so different from trying to develop a friendship with someone you're dating. Friendship has to develop in a dating relationship. But to say you won't date someone until you become friends with them, I don 't know. I'd ran away from someone who is interested in me, but won't make a move to get to know me from that level. Dating is hard enough, but to further add more confusion by not being upfront makes it even harder.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 11:40:50 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2130
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker
It's not so much about you become "undateable" unce you've been put in the friends zone, but it's more about how confusing it becomes, and there's so many potential for mixed messages when you don't clearly state your intention from the start. I can understand how you can become interested in your friend as you get to know them, but if you're already interested in someone and you only treat them as friends, chances are, you're already giving mixed signals.
Being just friends is so different from trying to develop a friendship with someone you're dating. Friendship has to develop in a dating relationship. But to say you won't date someone until you become friends with them, I don 't know. I'd ran away from someone who is interested in me, but won't make a move to get to know me from that level. Dating is hard enough, but to further add more confusion by not being upfront makes it even harder.
Maybe the confusion stems from the idea that just being friends means not clearly conveying your intentions, it does not. Calling it friends first as a way to avoid revealing your intentions really would be wimpy. One can clearly communicate an interest, and yes even go on a date, without treating woman they are with differently than they would a friend. Spending time together is a requirement for building any friendship, but most of what is involved in modern "dating" is not; often it really hinders the growth of a friendship. I don't think there is anything wrong with a man being bold enough to step up and ask a women to spend some time with him, but I don't think the time spent should look much like what most consider a "date".
To me a big indicator of a wrong approach to dating is that the friendship is lost when the dating relationship ends. If "dating" is done right I believe the results would be a lot more friendships that survive after the a couple realizes that there was no real dating potential.
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