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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/6/2008 3:58:26 PM
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John_O
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I was dragged in her by your post calling us to read your letter.
Before I got to that I read your "rock in the boot" story. Boy do I undersatnd that (Although I've only just started up that mountain). Hang in there, I'm praying for you.
The Letter story was phenomenal too. One thing it shows is God's provision. You did nothing yet he took care of you. I was kind of in the same shape when I met M. I did nothing yet God took care of me. And here we are again back to the rock in the boot.
So since God has done it for us once, why wouldn't He do it for us again? I believe that He will.
Our job is to trust him and follow His lead when He brings someone to us. After all, As I saw with M, He'll bring me a wonderful woman, but he's not going to force me to take her.
(Which brings me to the third reason I'm here. We brushed on a discussion of God's sovereignity. I'll let you start as it's your thread  )
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Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/6/2008 4:00:31 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 17805
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From: Just Outside of Boston
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September Morn, I heard that song on the radio recently on Wolfman Jacks radio show. I liked the song when it first came out. I had forgotten how much I liked the song!
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/6/2008 4:30:30 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8015
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
Thank you for reading. Normally I don't commemorate the day so blatantly, but there's a reason this year...
btw, I forgot to post a song.
Chanson du jour
shallbe
Excellent song. I can sing that one but haven't found it on karaoke yet. (I love most of his music)
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/6/2008 4:55:25 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
I was dragged in her by your post calling us to read your letter.
Before I got to that I read your "rock in the boot" story. Boy do I undersatnd that (Although I've only just started up that mountain). Hang in there, I'm praying for you.
The Letter story was phenomenal too. One thing it shows is God's provision. You did nothing yet he took care of you. I was kind of in the same shape when I met M. I did nothing yet God took care of me. And here we are again back to the rock in the boot.
So since God has done it for us once, why wouldn't He do it for us again? I believe that He will.
Our job is to trust him and follow His lead when He brings someone to us. After all, As I saw with M, He'll bring me a wonderful woman, but he's not going to force me to take her.
(Which brings me to the third reason I'm here. We brushed on a discussion of God's sovereignity. I'll let you start as it's your thread )
Thanks, John, for the encouragement--you always seem to bring a different perspective to my thoughts, and I am grateful for that. I feel like the little girl at the end of Miracle on 34th Street. Except for me the drive while I keep repeating "I believe, I believe, I believe" has been very, very long...
Still I hear it, and I will remember it (maybe I'll even repeat that instead. Saying those two words over and over again is getting very tiring.)
As far as the discussion of Sovereignty, I did ask you to begin by stating your own scriptural opinion. Feel free to copy/paste your post from over in that other thread to get us started. While you do that, I'm headed downstairs to grab my books and a couple cds to refer to as we talk.
shallbe
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SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/6/2008 6:26:49 PM
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.Pammy
Posts: 3888
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: PA, USA
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Thank you so much for sharing that story, Esther. I'm so glad you have those memories!
Oh, by the way, there's a really big difference between you and the girl in Miracle. What she really said was "I believe, I believe. It's silly, but I believe." The difference is, you know it's not silly to believe.
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Pam
<< Toby
"Sweet-talkers win at singles' bars and in politics ... often with similar outcomes for the listener."
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/6/2008 6:48:10 PM
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WaitingforBoaz
Posts: 4235
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
Two Letters
I have in my possession two very precious letters. Today I will tell you about one. In a few more weeks, I’ll finish the story with the other.
28 years ago today, in a little town in extreme Southeastern New Mexico in a small Baptist church my life changed forever.
I married my best friend.
I’ve mentioned elsewhere the fact that he asked me to marry him on our first date. Part of that story is that unbeknownst to me, he knew he wanted to marry me before we even had a first date.
MJJ and I grew up a block from one another. He had three sisters and I have one younger brother, so I spent a lot of time playing at his house with his sisters. I paid little or no attention to him, as he was 4 years older than I.
When he graduated from high school, his family also moved away. But he stayed in touch with everyone in our town: after all, he’d grown up here. He had made many friends in the adult population, and when he had a break from college, he would often drive down to our town and visit with them.
One of these times, he showed up at our home. It was the summer before I started my senior year, I think…it’s been a long time, so the exact chronology is a little fuzzy. He arrived in the late afternoon, but before my parents came home from work. He said he was there to visit my parents, and so of course I had to carry on polite conversation until they arrived. As we talked, we found that we held many opinions and thoughts in common! That night after supper, we stayed up talking until far into the night.
I was later to learn that on his way back to college the next day, he was thinking about us and realized that I was the sort of woman he wanted to marry. He told me much later that when he realized it he was shaking so hard he had to pull over to the side of the road!
However, I was still in high school. He and his best friend had made pacts with one another that they would not date high schoolers. So that was that. Nevertheless we kept up an occasional communication, and in the spring he came back for another visit. He did not mention his interest to me at all, and although I had slight hopes, I had no inkling of his interest at all.
I graduated in May, and was all ready to attend college in the fall. I had had one serious boyfriend, but since we got together pretty much simply because no one else would have either one of us, I figured no one would ever want me. So when MJJ called me about a month after I graduated and asked me out, I literally thought nothing of it: my thoughts were that his mother had put him up to it, perhaps thinking that since I was so naïve and about to go off to college I might need some experience (I know it’s silly, but honestly that’s what I thought).
We went out. Since the nearest city where one could have a real “date” was an hour away, we had lots of time in the car to talk. On the way back, I don’t remember how the subject came up—I think we were talking about our futures—he said something like “Or you could just marry me and that would take care of that problem…”—and since the context was just that we were being silly, I laughed and said no, I needed to go to school. I didn’t think he meant it at all.
At the end of the date, he didn’t try to kiss me in the usual way. He just took my hand and kissed it.
I didn’t wash the back of my hand for a week!
I wrote him a thank you note for the date, but while I very much wanted to have a relationship with this guy, I still couldn’t believe he really cared about me. Much later I received a letter from him. In it was the following paragraph…
“I guess I have a confession to make. Doggone you, you really ought to be shot, probably deserve it, too. Confession is this: ever since we went out, I miss you and I kind of wish you had said ‘yes’. I’d have been royally stuck, and not minding it a bit, and that scares me, not you, but the fact that I mean everything I just said and I’ve been putting a great deal of thought into it. I think maybe it’s a very good thing that you want to get an education before anything else. There now, I got all that out, I wasn’t really sure that I could.”
…The letter is dated Aug 24, 1978. We were married September 6th, 1980.
shallbe
Thank you for your story, what beautiful memories Esther.
Your avatar made me cry, what a lovely picture.
I have you in my prayers, today and for the next couple of weeks.
~Blessings
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/6/2008 9:48:27 PM
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John_O
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(The following was reposted from The reason for Creation)
Nice job TBT!
One part of the question that you didn't answer is "Why did He create us here on earth?"
If God just wanted a family He could have created an infinite number of children already in heaven. Why make us go through this hell called Earth?
We know that we were created for His pleasure
Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Now what Gives God pleasure? It must be more than just having Family because He could have done that without Earth.
Here's my take on it:
God wanted someone to love Him.
Deut 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
This first command is what all the requirements of the law are based on. We are to obey because we love.
Jesus confirms this in Matt 22:34-40.
34 ¶ But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
God commands us first and foremost, to love Him. That is what gives Him the most pleasure
So how does he insure that this happens (Because God always gets what He wants). He could create us in heaven, choicelessly loving Him. Let's explore this for a moment.
We are made in God's image (Gen 1:26). We have the same emotions and basic desires that He does (although ours have been corrupted). The desire to be loved is one of the main motivating factors in mankind (as we see in Gen 2:18).
Let's assume that we could manipulate someone so that they would love us totally, and that they would not know they had been manipulated into loving us. While their love would seem sincere to them, we would know that the only reason they loved us is because we forced them to love us.
It's not very satisfying to have someone's heart just because they have no other choice. Likewise I think it would not be satisfying to God if we loved Him just becuase He made us that way and we had no choice in it. Forced love is not love.
So, Why did God create us here on Earth? I believe it was to give us the opportunity to see how great He is, how worthy of love He is, to see His goodness towards us, and to let us choose of our own will to obey His command and love Him. He gets sincere real love. Nothing forced or artificial about it.
The cost to God of giving us this freedom however is man's rebellion and sin. Some of us will refuse to love Him, and even those of us who do choose to love Him disobey Him at times. Sin itself is an evidence that God was seeking something that required us to have a choice. Otherwise why would He allow something to exist that He is not pleased with?
So God uses this life on Earth to raise up sons and daughters unto Himself that will love Him of their own free will.
(I honestly can't think of another reason why He'd put up with everything He puts up with from us.)
(end repost)
Shallbe requested the repost here as a kickoff to a discussion of God's sovereignity.
Lets start with a few easy facts. God is. God is all powerful. God created us in His image. God could control every aspect of our lives down to determining what each of us will think at any moment.
All of these are pretty plain vanilla. The difference of opinion normally arises on whether the last one "God could" is equivalent to "God does". As can be seen from my post above, I do not believe that God controls every aspect of our lives. That is, I believe God has given man free will.
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Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 12:30:28 AM
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LabGuy
Posts: 3306
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: NW Pennsylvania
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Hopping in on the sovereignty discussion. Forgive me, but it's late so I'm going to forego looking up scripture references for now. But if something looks suspect, please call it out.
But I think we can all agree that the Bible teaches that God is absolutely sovereign. His Will will come to pass. You can dedicate yourself 100% to trying to thwart God's Will and in the end you'll see you were doing exactly what it takes to make it come to pass.
Some would argue then that everything is predestined and we can't have free will. I disagree, since the Bible clearly teaches both predestination and responsibility for our actions (free will). They both must be true, despite our human reasoning saying it can't be so. I for one am glad God is not constrained by our human reasoning! The three-in-one nature of the Trinity doesn't make much sense either, but there it is. I am convinced there are spiritual realities that we just can't fit into our understanding of how things work.
I thought of something that might help it make a little sense. Imagine a jigsaw puzzle. But the individual pieces change shape and color depending on the other pieces around them (exercising a sort of free will in response to circumstances). That would be an impossible challenge to (a) get them all to fit together and (b) form a coherent picture. But God, being God, knows how all the pieces will react, and thus where to place them so that everything interlocks and the beautiful picture of His Will emerges.
I'm sure the illustration could be picked apart, and even at best is a pale attempt at understanding the spiritual truth behind it all, but I find it helpful anyway. 
As to the question, "Why creation?" as I said in the Questions thread I believe it is all for God's glory. And for Him to be truly glorified, it required us being able to choose. And even though most choose rebellion, I believe that ultimately God will still be maximally glorified by it all. (I don't think numbers matter the same way in the spiritual realm, given how Jesus tells us there is joy in heaven over one sinner that repents.)
Now I do not think this means God is on an ego trip. I think what's behind it is that God is so incredibly amazingly awesomely wonderful, it is actually wrong if He is not glorified. He is worthy of the glory - He deserves it! Thus with a creation designed to glorify him, God is simply being true to Himself.
Does that make sense?
-Robb
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 12:35:49 AM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 17805
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From: Just Outside of Boston
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If I could just chime in on the predestined and free will thing. I believe that we have free will but that God already knows what we are going to do before we do it. Just like when Jesus predicted that Peter would deny Him 3 times before it happened. He still had free will, but God knew that he was going to do that though.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 10:00:06 AM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
Joined: 11/8/2007
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Welcome to the discussion everyone! I don't have time to answer this morning, but I will come back after church and begin to try to address these things.
However, for the sake of reference (should someone join the conversation who isn't aware of our goal) I wanted to post here some guidelines for the discussion:
1) foremost and above all this discussion is to glorify God.
2) It does not glorify God to hurt or denigrate other people.
3) Therefore if you are feeling defensive, frustrated or even angry, DO NOT POST.
4) Name calling, flaming, reputation bashing are strictly prohibited. If this occurs I will take whatever measures are necessary to restore the peaceful and intelligent scriptural discussion of the subject, including calling in a mod to banish you from the thread.
5) If someone calls you a name, flames you, or bashes your reputation, please glorify God by refusing to respond.
6) All opinions are welcome: be aware that any opinion is subject to scriptural scrutiny. If you don't want your opinion challenged by scripture, then don't state it.
7) Our goal here is to delight in and glorify God (did I say that already?) We're all here to LEARN, not to CONVINCE. Convincing is not our job, that's the job of the Holy Spirit. So when the temptation arises, Just Say No. 
Let the PARTAY begin!!!
  
shallbe
_____________________________
SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 3:00:15 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
Joined: 11/8/2007
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YUM! I love this stuff. Here’s my post. I am not necessarily stating my own opinion or theology, but rather asking questions so that we can all find our own answers as God leads. So forgive the Socratic methodology and humor me.
quote:
John_O
We know that we were created for His pleasure
Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
True. Scripturally proven.
quote:
John_O
Now what Gives God pleasure?
VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION. I’m convinced we can answer “Why did God create us here on earth”? if we can answer this question properly.
quote:
John_O
Here's my take on it:
God wanted someone to love Him.
John, you attempted to prove this statement by using the first commandment as proof that the thing that gives God the most pleasure is being loved. Because we have a need to be loved, you postulated that God needs to be loved.
However, if you use this, you imply that somehow God experienced/experiences a lack of something.
I must ask, then: does God lack anything? Does He experience a lack of anything?
The answer to this question carries significant theological weight.
Then you stated these two sentences:
quote:
John_O
God commands us first and foremost, to love Him. That is what gives Him the most pleasure
Before we can go on, it’s important that we establish this scripturally. Your way of attempting to show that what gives God the most pleasure is to extrapolate that from His primary commands to us.
I would propose, however, that God is very clear in scripture about what brings Him pleasure. Finding scripture that clearly states that certain things bring God pleasure is pretty easy. Get out your concordance and see what you come up with.
quote:
John_O
So, Why did God create us here on Earth? I believe it was to give us the opportunity to see how great He is, how worthy of love He is, to see His goodness towards us, and to let us choose of our own will to obey His command and love Him. He gets sincere real love. Nothing forced or artificial about it.
Very close. We can take up the italicized part after we scripturally establish what brings God pleasure, and why He created the world and us.
quote:
Robb
As to the question, "Why creation?" as I said in the Questions thread I believe it is all for God's glory. And for Him to be truly glorified, it required us being able to choose. And even though most choose rebellion, I believe that ultimately God will still be maximally glorified by it all. (I don't think numbers matter the same way in the spiritual realm, given how Jesus tells us there is joy in heaven over one sinner that repents.)
Now I do not think this means God is on an ego trip. I think what's behind it is that God is so incredibly amazingly awesomely wonderful, it is actually wrong if He is not glorified. He is worthy of the glory - He deserves it! Thus with a creation designed to glorify him, God is simply being true to Himself.
Does that make sense?
Not only does it make sense, Robb, it’s very nearly spot on (we could quibble about the numbers mattering, maybe). You have stated the truth in the bolded section above. A proper understanding of this statement will inevitably lead to a proper understanding of creation.
quote:
Mike
I believe that we have free will but that God already knows what we are going to do before we do it.
Ok, but it doesn’t go far enough in understanding God’s nature and character, Mike. Does God look into the future, discover what we are going to choose, and formulate His plan around that? Or does He have His plan for our lives completely worked out ahead of time so that everything (as Robb so aptly put it) maximally glorifies Him? The answer is more important than you think.
I believe if you search scripture you will find that the second option is the one that stands up to scrutiny.
shallbe
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SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 3:09:38 PM
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FunBetty
Posts: 7518
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dr Pepper Country
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
Welcome to the discussion everyone! I don't have time to answer this morning, but I will come back after church and begin to try to address these things.
However, for the sake of reference (should someone join the conversation who isn't aware of our goal) I wanted to post here some guidelines for the discussion:
1) foremost and above all this discussion is to glorify God.
2) It does not glorify God to hurt or denigrate other people.
3) Therefore if you are feeling defensive, frustrated or even angry, DO NOT POST.
4) Name calling, flaming, reputation bashing are strictly prohibited. If this occurs I will take whatever measures are necessary to restore the peaceful and intelligent scriptural discussion of the subject, including calling in a mod to banish you from the thread.
5) If someone calls you a name, flames you, or bashes your reputation, please glorify God by refusing to respond.
6) All opinions are welcome: be aware that any opinion is subject to scriptural scrutiny. If you don't want your opinion challenged by scripture, then don't state it.
7) Our goal here is to delight in and glorify God (did I say that already?) We're all here to LEARN, not to CONVINCE. Convincing is not our job, that's the job of the Holy Spirit. So when the temptation arises, Just Say No.
Let the PARTAY begin!!!
shallbe
Esther is the mod of her own thread! SWEEEEEETT!!!!!!!
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Fun Betty's Therapy Centre and Cheesecake and Cookie Shoppe
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 3:09:58 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 17805
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
quote:
Mike
I believe that we have free will but that God already knows what we are going to do before we do it.
Ok, but it doesn’t go far enough in understanding God’s nature and character, Mike. Does God look into the future, discover what we are going to choose, and formulate His plan around that? Or does He have His plan for our lives completely worked out ahead of time so that everything (as Robb so aptly put it) maximally glorifies Him? The answer is more important than you think.
I believe if you search scripture you will find that the second option is the one that stands up to scrutiny.
shallbe
And is what I agree with as well, but the only qualifier is that we do His will. We can miss God's best by sinning instead.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 4:33:20 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
quote:
Mike
I believe that we have free will but that God already knows what we are going to do before we do it.
Ok, but it doesn’t go far enough in understanding God’s nature and character, Mike. Does God look into the future, discover what we are going to choose, and formulate His plan around that? Or does He have His plan for our lives completely worked out ahead of time so that everything (as Robb so aptly put it) maximally glorifies Him? The answer is more important than you think.
I believe if you search scripture you will find that the second option is the one that stands up to scrutiny.
shallbe
And is what I agree with as well, but the only qualifier is that we do His will. We can miss God's best by sinning instead.
So, just to clarify, Mike, you're saying that
1) God has a best plan. Call it Plan A.
2) I have my plan, which doesn't always match up to His Plan A.
3) I execute my plan (sin).
4) God says to Himself "oops!" and has to make a Plan B.
Making me ultimately more powerful than God, because I can cause Him to have to change His plan.
Is that the scenario you are proposing?
shallbe
_____________________________
SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 4:52:36 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 17805
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
quote:
Mike
I believe that we have free will but that God already knows what we are going to do before we do it.
Ok, but it doesn’t go far enough in understanding God’s nature and character, Mike. Does God look into the future, discover what we are going to choose, and formulate His plan around that? Or does He have His plan for our lives completely worked out ahead of time so that everything (as Robb so aptly put it) maximally glorifies Him? The answer is more important than you think.
I believe if you search scripture you will find that the second option is the one that stands up to scrutiny.
shallbe
And is what I agree with as well, but the only qualifier is that we do His will. We can miss God's best by sinning instead.
So, just to clarify, Mike, you're saying that
1) God has a best plan. Call it Plan A.
2) I have my plan, which doesn't always match up to His Plan A.
3) I execute my plan (sin).
4) God says to Himself "oops!" and has to make a Plan B.
Making me ultimately more powerful than God, because I can cause Him to have to change His plan.
Is that the scenario you are proposing?
shallbe
Um well, or it could be that we get much slower at reaching His plan instead, almost like taking a test. When you are on course you are taking the test and answering the questions correctly. When you decide to not do the test, you walk away instead. The test still has a time limit, but you wasted your time doing other things instead.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 5:48:17 PM
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LabGuy
Posts: 3306
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: NW Pennsylvania
Status: offline
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An interesting book on the topic of God's Will is Decision Making and the Will of God by Garry Friesen. Well-grounded in scripture.
The gist of the book is that God has a sovereign will that is guaranteed to come to pass (much as we've already talked about). But it's not something we discover and is secret aside from what is revealed in Scripture. He also has a moral will which is fully revealed in Scripture; there are commands we must obey, and if we don't it's sin. The author then argues that within the bounds proscribed by God's moral will, we have freedom (and the responsibility) to choose on our own. We are however, to employ wisdom in making our choices. (And wise choices tend to lead to better outcomes. But even if they don't, it does not mean we sinned and missed the boat.)
I admit I'm ambivalent about the concept. On the one hand, it means there's no "missing God's will" and forever being relegated to second, third, or fourth-best in life. (I struggle with that at times; not so much fearing that I have missed God's will for my life, but that I just plain screwed up and went down a dead-end.) But on the other hand, it's comforting to think God has a minutely detailed plan you can just follow in every aspect of life.
But no matter what, we cannot derail God's sovereign plan in the slightest with any of our choices. His purpose for our lives, for the world, for all of creation, will be accomplished.
-Robb
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 9:25:41 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
Joined: 11/8/2007
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ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
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ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
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ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
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ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
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Mike
I believe that we have free will but that God already knows what we are going to do before we do it.
Ok, but it doesn’t go far enough in understanding God’s nature and character, Mike. Does God look into the future, discover what we are going to choose, and formulate His plan around that? Or does He have His plan for our lives completely worked out ahead of time so that everything (as Robb so aptly put it) maximally glorifies Him? The answer is more important than you think.
I believe if you search scripture you will find that the second option is the one that stands up to scrutiny.
shallbe
And is what I agree with as well, but the only qualifier is that we do His will. We can miss God's best by sinning instead.
So, just to clarify, Mike, you're saying that
1) God has a best plan. Call it Plan A.
2) I have my plan, which doesn't always match up to His Plan A.
3) I execute my plan (sin).
4) God says to Himself "oops!" and has to make a Plan B.
Making me ultimately more powerful than God, because I can cause Him to have to change His plan.
Is that the scenario you are proposing?
shallbe
Um well, or it could be that we get much slower at reaching His plan instead, almost like taking a test. When you are on course you are taking the test and answering the questions correctly. When you decide to not do the test, you walk away instead. The test still has a time limit, but you wasted your time doing other things instead.
Mike, it seems to me by this last comment that you have a concept of "God's plan" as a discrete moment in time when "things" start to happen that are according to God's plan.
Would that be a fair summary of your belief? If so, then your theology still allows for you to be able to thwart God's will, with the results mentioned in my earlier post.
What if, instead, God's plan for you started before the beginning of the world (can be scripturally proven) and you have been functioning in it from the moment you were conceived? Every breath, your first grade teacher, the 25th hair in your beard...all planned before the beginning of the world. Your first lie. All part of Plan A.
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Robb
But no matter what, we cannot derail God's sovereign plan in the slightest with any of our choices. His purpose for our lives, for the world, for all of creation, will be accomplished.
Which presupposes GOD'S choice in choosing/electing each Christian. Predestination at it's finest. Christians don't have the knowledge of who will and who will not be elected, so we still have motivation to spread the gospel (as if God's command to do so wasn't enough), but neither do we have the burden of worrying over much about every decision we make. We simply do the best we can: God does the rest, providing grace that turns our sins into events that bring Him glory, gifts of grace and faith that accomplish in us the growth that makes us more like Him, and the "everyday" blessings He gives to us all...air, water, sunshine, heartbeat.
Amazing. Grace.
shallbe
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SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 9:33:11 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 17805
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
Status: offline
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quote:
Mike, it seems to me by this last comment that you have a concept of "God's plan" as a discrete moment in time when "things" start to happen that are according to God's plan.
Would that be a fair summary of your belief? If so, then your theology still allows for you to be able to thwart God's will, with the results mentioned in my earlier post.
What if, instead, God's plan for you started before the beginning of the world (can be scripturally proven) and you have been functioning in it from the moment you were conceived? Every breath, your first grade teacher, the 25th hair in your beard...all planned before the beginning of the world. Your first lie. All part of Plan A.
Maybe, God has a definite plan, but are we willing to follow it? But then again this all comes back to predestination as well. The more I think about it, the more questions that I have than answers.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 9:38:24 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
quote:
Mike, it seems to me by this last comment that you have a concept of "God's plan" as a discrete moment in time when "things" start to happen that are according to God's plan.
Would that be a fair summary of your belief? If so, then your theology still allows for you to be able to thwart God's will, with the results mentioned in my earlier post.
What if, instead, God's plan for you started before the beginning of the world (can be scripturally proven) and you have been functioning in it from the moment you were conceived? Every breath, your first grade teacher, the 25th hair in your beard...all planned before the beginning of the world. Your first lie. All part of Plan A.
Maybe, God has a definite plan, but are we willing to follow it? But then again this all comes back to predestination as well. The more I think about it, the more questions that I have than answers.
Sovereignty can hit you like that, first bat out of the hat. (HA! I can't believe I said that here in the Batty Belfry!) Anyway...
This is a safe place to ask the questions, Mike. We've all got them. Maybe we won't find answers, but delighting in the Lord by discussing Him and trying to get to know Him better has got to be a good thing.
Ask away!
shallbe
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SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 9:57:07 PM
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LabGuy
Posts: 3306
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: NW Pennsylvania
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
This is a safe place to ask the questions, Mike. We've all got them. Maybe we won't find answers, but delighting in the Lord by discussing Him and trying to get to know Him better has got to be a good thing.
Ask away!
shallbe
Right. It may be we might not be able to fully grasp how predestination and free will work together this side of the veil. I think the practical outworking has to be we take God at His Word and (1) trust that He is fully in control, and (2) we do make choices and we are responsible for them.
-Robb
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 10:07:42 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 17805
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
quote:
Mike, it seems to me by this last comment that you have a concept of "God's plan" as a discrete moment in time when "things" start to happen that are according to God's plan.
Would that be a fair summary of your belief? If so, then your theology still allows for you to be able to thwart God's will, with the results mentioned in my earlier post.
What if, instead, God's plan for you started before the beginning of the world (can be scripturally proven) and you have been functioning in it from the moment you were conceived? Every breath, your first grade teacher, the 25th hair in your beard...all planned before the beginning of the world. Your first lie. All part of Plan A.
Maybe, God has a definite plan, but are we willing to follow it? But then again this all comes back to predestination as well. The more I think about it, the more questions that I have than answers.
Sovereignty can hit you like that, first bat out of the hat. (HA! I can't believe I said that here in the Batty Belfry!) Anyway...
This is a safe place to ask the questions, Mike. We've all got them. Maybe we won't find answers, but delighting in the Lord by discussing Him and trying to get to know Him better has got to be a good thing.
Ask away!
shallbe
I think of the whole David and Besheeba thing. It was obvious that wasn't God's will for him to do, and yet at the end of David's life, God said that he served the purposes for his generation. Then there was Peter's denial of Jesus too, and yet God had already factored that into the plan also. So maybe it is harder to derail God's plan than I think.
I will say this though, I have made many mistakes since becoming born again, and I cannot see how it is even possible that I am gonna get God's best at this point.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/7/2008 10:18:46 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
I think of the whole David and Besheeba thing. It was obvious that wasn't God's will for him to do, and yet at the end of David's life, God said that he served the purposes for his generation. Then there was Peter's denial of Jesus too, and yet God had already factored that into the plan also. So maybe it is harder to derail God's plan than I think.
I will say this though, I have made many mistakes since becoming born again, and I cannot see how it is even possible that I am gonna get God's best at this point.
THAT is one of the things that makes God GREAT, Mike...cause it's not about us and how good we are.
It's all about His mercy, love, and grace and how good HE is. God does not change His plan because of the things you've done. Instead, He gets glory to Himself through them, too--turns them to good. And He reveals more and more of Himself to you so that you grow more and more like Him...even though you have sinned.
It's all Plan A. It's all His best for you. You can't miss it.
shallbe
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