Help me talk to my pastor

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Sonrise -> Help me talk to my pastor (6/3/2008 12:13:05 PM)
Hi, First of all I want to thank you guys, earthless and others for all you do here. It is very edifing, for the most part. [;)] My wife and I moved to Greenville, SC a little over a year ago and went to 13 different churches before we became members at one particular one. In LA we attended TCOTW and loved it. I would consider myself charismatic/pentecostal but really believe in order and self control. I am very cautious of WOF theology, to be honest I'm starting to think it has "cult-like" tendencies. My parents raised us in WOF and yes, I saw fruits, all rotten ones. My parents are now divorced after 40 years and my mom sees nothing wrong with this despite my dad begging her to go to counseling for over 2 years. Anyway, forgive my digression. Here's my dilemma, the church which we've been attending is getting very Word of Faithy. My pastor has a good heart and has mentioned order but he's mentioned "brothers" Copeland, Hinn and last week he was talking about the Lakeland revival and IHOP in a positive manner. Having read the entire thread on TB, I was shaking my head to myself in sadness. Lat week my pastor preached about the "born again mind" and the "born again spirit". He went so far as to say that "As a matter of fact, I don't think our mind will be truly born again until we get to heaven". This raised an obvious red flag as we all should know that you can't be born again in heaven, and that the bible makes no mention of seperate parts of us being born again. I mentioned this to my wife and dad who were both sitting there and they agreed with me 100%. My dad did say what he thought the pastor meant, that the Bible says that we are to renew our minds daily, and I do believe that is what he meant but it was so theologically wrong. My pastor has preached on healing and has stated numerous times that God doesn't want us sick. He bases this on the biblical passages, "by his stripes, you were healed", "You're will be done on earth as it is in Heaven", and he says, "Why would a loving God want his children sick" "speak to the mountains, if you have the faith of a mustard seed", "Jesus says, you have what you say", etc. My father is pretty WOF and struggles with what I've told him. He doesn't believe that all WOF is wrong, he does say most but he likes this guy Robert Morris. The church does preach about "speaking to your body" to line-up with the Word of God. I want to make an appointment with my pastor but I'm ashamed to admit that I don't know the Bible as well as I should. My dad often times reminds me of this, sometime subtly putting me down. I told him that I don't care if it's Baptist doctrine of WOF doctrine, I just care that it's Biblical doctrine. I want to talk to my pastor about these issues and specifically Lakeland, citing all that I've learned here. Here are, what I believe will be my pastors arguements; even though some doctrine may be "off" God works in mysterious ways. I'm rushing this post because my dad's here and we're going out to lunch, so I'll write more later. Thanks to all for reading my incoherent drivel and please help . I really want scripture to back up the truth, not the "gotcha" that very rarely pops up here. Thanks again to all. Sonrise

csl7037 -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/3/2008 12:33:09 PM)
Wow, I'm really interested in the advice you get here. What's your pastor's background? My pastor is very much former Southern Baptist and, to his credit, is very cautious on such things but he's definitely moved beyond his Baptist roots. But he's not really sure where he wants to be, IMO. He knows my WOF background and my strong concerns, like yours, with anything that smacks of that. He does a great deal of research. He's come across somethings that he's pulled me aside just to say "WOW, that's some crazy stuff!" But I think the less subtle places where WOF theology has seeped into the more mainstream and sometimes sounds good, I think he doesn't recognize those things right away sometimes. He's in an interesting place, maybe your pastor is too, because he's definitely got an entire spectrum of backgrounds and beliefs in his current congregation. IMO, you should sit down and clearly think through and list some of your concerns. Lay those out for him, and just let him know that you're praying for wisdom and discernment for him. That would be my first meeting anyway, I think.

P31W -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/3/2008 12:39:57 PM)
I would not try to talk to him if I were you. Instead I would leave that church and never look back.

SirWintery -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/3/2008 12:45:25 PM)
Sonrise, The likely result of such of conversation is an unpleasant outcome. I disagreed, told an elder/pastor and said because of the disagreement I had had thoughts about leaving the church. He wasted not one second in telling me that maybe I should, and it was all normal conversation, no yelling, just a few matters of church direction (I objected to secret meetings and forming a church within a church, controlling whether members went to a former member's house meeting, and the handling of these situations--other churches still say they were "always cult-like"). A friend had gone to the whole elder/pastor crew some months before about different matters. Some listened quietly but they all jumped in for prayer when one elder said he had "a demon problem". So one can follow God and have such a conversation or one can follow God and find a more Scriptural place to congregate...just my humble opinion you know, God bless you. "Keep on the sunny side" plays in the background...[:D] (ETA posted before I saw any response so I'm only addressing OP) ...took out a line I didn't like...

Sonrise -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/3/2008 12:47:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: P31W I would not try to talk to him if I were you. Instead I would leave that church and never look back. If I can show him in the Bible where his doctrine is a bit "off" he can see the truth. I just have to know the truth and the Bible better. He's a good man and does have a heart for the Lord.

rlj -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/3/2008 1:35:13 PM)
quote: I would not try to talk to him if I were you. Instead I would leave that church and never look back. When Paul's churches had issues- serious issues he never told anyone to leave, ever. They had their own heresy's, their own awful doctrines and scandals. He tried to work it through with them and encouraged us to work things through. I can't see being a quitter. It's one thing to just quit and move on it's another to do what is right if that's what you think you should do. If nothing changes or you get labelled a heretic or they try to cast demons out of you at least you know that you did the right thing. You should be no more afraid of him (or them) then you would be telling a brother to show some restraint in some other instance. quote: "Why would a loving God want his children sick" He doesn't. Sickness is a result of the fall of man in the Garden of Eden. When Adam sinned he brought death into the world. In the eternal scheme of things this is just a temporary stop off and when we ditch these bodies we will get our new bodies and these will be sin free and never know pain, sickness, hunger etc. I don't have enough time to devote to this but all of the things you mentioned have answers, valid answers.

P31W -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/3/2008 2:06:15 PM)
quote: I just have to know the truth and the Bible better. Do you need to know it a "bit better" or alot better? Jesus trained his disciples for 3 years. Paul spend a great deal of time learning as well as did Timothy and the others who were leaders in the church. It's dangerous territory. What do the elders in your church believe? Sunday School teachers? Why are they not the ones you are going to with your concerns? Why have they not confronted the pastor? Are you sure that your entire chruch is not on board with this man? Are they disturbed by the false doctrine or are they in agreement?

cow451 -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/3/2008 2:07:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sonrise quote: ORIGINAL: P31W I would not try to talk to him if I were you. Instead I would leave that church and never look back. If I can show him in the Bible where his doctrine is a bit "off" he can see the truth. I just have to know the truth and the Bible better. He's a good man and does have a heart for the Lord. Uhhhhhh................ good luck with that![>:]

earthless -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/3/2008 2:13:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sonrise quote: ORIGINAL: P31W I would not try to talk to him if I were you. Instead I would leave that church and never look back. If I can show him in the Bible where his doctrine is a bit "off" he can see the truth. I just have to know the truth and the Bible better. He's a good man and does have a heart for the Lord. The first question that came to my mind is why doesn't he know the truth know? Why has he bought into the heretical movement of WoF?

JimboFletch -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/3/2008 2:13:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rlj quote: I would not try to talk to him if I were you. Instead I would leave that church and never look back. When Paul's churches had issues- serious issues he never told anyone to leave, ever. If I were Paul and had planted the church and ordained it's pastor, I might stick around and straighten him out. Since none of that applies, I respectfully agree with others that suggest it's high time to get out of that nest of vipers and find a true church of God the Son, Jesus Christ.

earthless -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/3/2008 2:24:29 PM)
Sonrise, Something else to consider - I spent a lot of years trying to change the church I was an associate pastor in from becoming full blown Word of Faith/Hyper Third Wave. Many left the church, including my entire family and me because the senior pastor did not want to hear it nor change his beliefs.

crankius -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/3/2008 2:28:54 PM)
I agree with those who have stated you should leave. -you can't submit to the leadership -you can't be persuaded by the leadership -you have found that the leadership is not rightly dividing the word -you see that the leadership is not protecting the doctrine of the church If all these things are true, you should pray, leave, and seek biblical leadership.

4ChristisLove -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/3/2008 3:09:39 PM)
I would probably not go to the pastor about his teachings. I would have to agree with most that it would be best to find another church that lines up with the Word of God. I think someone mentioned speaking with other leaders in the church. I would do that before going to the pastor, even if it's just talking to them in conversation on their belief's. This scripture came to mind.... Romans 14:1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. I think it would be beneficial for you to read that chapter. I believe that we need to be in agreement on things like Jesus Christ being the Son of God and our way of salvation (the process that consists of), but some things are just minor. Now, I do think TB & Lakeland is worth spending time on. I would probably have to share the red flags with him on that one. Maybe he hasn't seen the video's and heard some of the statements that Bentley has made. I pray that you find a way to deal with it (however it be) that will glorify God.

rcjames -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/3/2008 3:18:03 PM)
As a Pastor I would welcome any of my congregants coming to me with concerns about where the Church was headed in teaching, doctrine, etc. Just make an appointment, tell him exactly how you feel, listen to his postion, and go from there. Thanks RC edited for punctuation error.

stateofgrace -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/3/2008 3:25:09 PM)
I don't think it's wrong for the OP to go to his pastor, but I also think the OP should prayerfully consider what he will do if the pastor is set in his ways. I don't think I've ever known a WOF person who has been easily talked out of it. Often, it's taken something really dramatic or traumatic to get their attention.

cow451 -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/3/2008 3:45:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames As a Pastor I would welcome any of my congregants coming to me with concerns about where the Church was headed in teaching, doctrine, etc. Just make an appointment, tell him exactly how you feel, listen to his postion, and go from there. Thanks RC edited for punctuation error. And don't let the door hit you in the back on the way out.[:D]

bluestone -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/3/2008 3:52:41 PM)
Perhaps you can gather the links and scripture used here and take it with you as reference. Show him the distorted things going on in Florida, and the arguments used against it as well as the scripture. Just print it out, take it with you, and refer to it when necessary.

cow451 -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/3/2008 3:55:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bluestone Perhaps you can gather the links and scripture used here and take it with you as reference. Show him the distorted things going on in Florida, and the arguments used against it as well as the scripture. Just print it out, take it with you, and refer to it when necessary. Kevlar might help as well.[;)]

rlj -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/3/2008 11:59:31 PM)
quote: If I were Paul and had planted the church and ordained it's pastor, I might stick around and straighten him out. Since none of that applies, I respectfully agree with others that suggest it's high time to get out of that nest of vipers and find a true church of God the Son, Jesus Christ. Leaving isn't an unwise thing but it was never mentioned by Paul in any of his epistles nor I have ever heard that mentioned in any of the letters I've read going into the second century. If one looks at how many churches Paul had though there also isn't any possible way he could have ordained everyone who served in a leadership position which is why he left instructions on how to do this- specifically in the 2 epistles to Timothy and in Titus. As Paul makes his case in Galatians when he gets to the third chapter he starts it with "who has bewitched you?" Someone had to that he chooses not to name or doesn't know the name of. He also doesn't name any individual church leaders as responsible. At the heart of the matter that Pastor and those people are christians before they are WoF they are just christians that are wrong. There is nothing wrong with being a man or woman of God and attempting to make a stand for the truth. If it's rejected and the response resembles the naysayers here then wash your hands and go in peace. Maybe the Lord wants someone or some people there who know the truth to pray, stand in the gap for those that are deceived and to stand up for the truth as the oppourtunity presents itself. I know of several people who the Lord put in churches they didn't like or want to go to but as time went on they seen that there was a purpose and a reason for it. Some were so sinful they could be called apostate, some dead and dry, some WoF. However to the guy in the OP there is nothing stopping you from just going either. Personnally though if my Pastor was doing something or moving in a direction I disagreed with I'd do like RC said and what you mentioned and discuss it with him. I would recomend starting the conversation with something like "I'm concerned about some things I've been seeing" and go from there. If you start it with "You blasphemous truth-squashing heretic who is gonna burn!" I think you already lost. ; )

lw9 -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/4/2008 1:03:13 PM)
quote: crankius: I agree with those who have stated you should leave. -you can't submit to the leadership -you can't be persuaded by the leadership -you have found that the leadership is not rightly dividing the word -you see that the leadership is not protecting the doctrine of the church If all these things are true, you should pray, leave, and seek biblical leadership. I totally agree with crankius. Once a church leadership has decided to head down this path with no opposition from the congregation, then they've obviously set their course. I do think we should bring our concerns to the leadership and warn them of the dangers of these kinds of teachings, though, just as we do here in the forum. It may not have any effect, but at least we tried. If their course was still set towards false doctrine, false signs and wonders, false teachers, false prophets, etc., I would not hesitate to leave since I could no longer worship with those who welcome and embrace those things. We simply would not be standing in agreement on the same foundation any longer.

rcjames -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/4/2008 2:02:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crankius I agree with those who have stated you should leave. -you can't submit to the leadership -you can't be persuaded by the leadership -you have found that the leadership is not rightly dividing the word -you see that the leadership is not protecting the doctrine of the church If all these things are true, you should pray, leave, and seek biblical leadership. I agree, but I do not think from the OP that we can assume that any of this is true. So again I say go and talk to the Pastor and just ask the question; Is this where you and the leadershio are desiring to take the Church? To jump up and run off because of a couple of references in a couple of sermons is totally uncalled for. Thanks RC

lw9 -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/4/2008 2:20:34 PM)
quote: crankius: I agree with those who have stated you should leave. -you can't submit to the leadership -you can't be persuaded by the leadership -you have found that the leadership is not rightly dividing the word -you see that the leadership is not protecting the doctrine of the church If all these things are true, you should pray, leave, and seek biblical leadership. quote: rcjames: I agree, but I do not think from the OP that we can assume that any of this is true. I don't think crankius was assuming those things to be true, though. She said 'If all these things are true...'. I thought her point was more for the OP to test these things first and then come to a decision, and that was very sensible to me.

crankius -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/4/2008 2:33:42 PM)
quote: I don't think crankius was assuming those things to be true, though. She said 'If all these things are true...'. I thought her point was more for the OP to test these things first and then come to a decision, and that was very sensible to me. Thank you lw9. Yes, IF all those things are true, it is better to find biblical leadership you can submit to than to sit in defiance under unbiblical leadership. Once you have affirmed that their theology is off-base on issues of importance, it is best to leave. Sometimes a discussion needs to take place to affirm it, but sometimes you don't need a discussion because the off-base theology is quite clear. quote: If I can show him in the Bible where his doctrine is a bit "off" he can see the truth. I just have to know the truth and the Bible better. He's a good man and does have a heart for the Lord. Just anecdotal, but I've never found leadership to be very open to such discussions. If the leadership were solid people and you could ask them your questions without having them accuse you of anything, then it can be good to talk with them. However, there are some leadership who will label you and accuse you just for asking the questions and having a different theological understanding. It's important that the OP use discernment and be careful while addressing these theological differences. If RC were your pastor, you could definitely bring up your questions. [:D]

Sonrise -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/6/2008 12:05:42 AM)
Thanks for all of the responses. you guys/gals have been a real blessing. My pastor was raised Mennonite and went to Eastern Mennonite in Virginia. He does lean WOF now though. He's a really nice guy and seems approachable. When we went to membership class last year during q&a I asked him point blank if the church was WOF, much to my wifes chagrin being expressed by kicks to the shin under the table. [:D] He along with the founders, (a sweet couple in their 70's) said yes without saying yes. The Pastor even said that when it became apparent that they were leaning that way they lost a lot of families. Is it too much to ask if someone could post scriptures to refute popular WOF doctrine, some of which I mentioned in my op? The pastor did say that tongues is supposed to be orderly and that "singing in the spirit" isn't scriptural which pleasantly surprised me. Thanks again.

crankius -> RE: Help me talk to my pastor (6/10/2008 12:30:32 AM)
Sonrise, I just saw your post. I think if you ask specific questions in the WOF thread, you will get excellent answers from the regular posters in there.

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