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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 10:03:46 PM
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Jeff_from_Kentucky
Posts: 1637
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From: Kentucky
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Actually Julius, if you go back and look at all of the reasons we went in (and there were at least a half dozen), helping Iraq develop a stable Democracy WAS one of the reasons though ridding them of WMD's was the one that was waived around the most, as John Kerry kept pointing out in 2004.
As far as my example of American Independence and the problems our nation faced in the early years compared to what is going on in Iraq, it was completely appropriate and accurate. We wouldn't celebrate our Independence every July 4th if they had failed now would we?
The point you seem to be missing is that these things take time. Whether we should have gone in or not is irrelevant now because the fact is we did go in and we are there. To leave before Iraq can take care of itself would be the most irresponsible thing this nation has ever done.
By the way, once we are finished in Iraq, I believe that ALL of our troops that are currently based overseas in any nation should be brought home. We have no business having troops in Europe, Japan, South Korea, or any other place where we are not directly involved in a war. My belief is that our troops should be protecting our shores unless we are in a war. Bring our overseas troops home now and bring those in Iraq home once the job is done.
< Message edited by Jeff_from_Kentucky -- 6/7/2008 11:06:20 PM >
_____________________________
<< Frank Seamans and my son Jeffrey - September, 2007
"For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." Philippians 1:21
Dispatchers tell cops where to go!
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 10:18:40 PM
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Jeff_from_Kentucky
Posts: 1637
Joined: 7/5/2006
From: Kentucky
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
No, I was just saying that if they pay taxes here, they should be able to live here.
The thing is, from what I have read most illegal aliens don't pay taxes here. Many of them are paid in cash and then send that money back to Mexico or wherever they are from. They are taking money out of our economy.
I have a couple of questions for all of those who think that we should allow anyone to come to the US.
First, does the bible say that it is wrong to put our own house in order? That is my main thing. Let's fix the many problems we have here first before we allow anyone else in. We already have enough of our own poor and homeless that we need to help. Once we do, then we will be in a much better position to help those others who want to come here.
Second, if we open the borders and allow anyone in who wants to come here, just how many terrorist attacks will it take before you change your mind? If we had had more strict border control, such as closed borders, prior to 9/11, the attacks would not have happened.
< Message edited by Jeff_from_Kentucky -- 6/7/2008 10:24:56 PM >
_____________________________
<< Frank Seamans and my son Jeffrey - September, 2007
"For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." Philippians 1:21
Dispatchers tell cops where to go!
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 11:12:32 PM
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Lizahana
Posts: 982
Joined: 4/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeff_from_Kentucky
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
No, I was just saying that if they pay taxes here, they should be able to live here.
The thing is, from what I have read most illegal aliens don't pay taxes here. Many of them are paid in cash and then send that money back to Mexico or wherever they are from. They are taking money out of our economy.
I have a couple of questions for all of those who think that we should allow anyone to come to the US.
First, does the bible say that it is wrong to put our own house in order? That is my main thing. Let's fix the many problems we have here first before we allow anyone else in. We already have enough of our own poor and homeless that we need to help. Once we do, then we will be in a much better position to help those others who want to come here.
Second, if we open the borders and allow anyone in who wants to come here, just how many terrorist attacks will it take before you change your mind? If we had had more strict border control, such as closed borders, prior to 9/11, the attacks would not have happened.
Hi Jeff,
Well, when I said that, I was actually talking about the guest worker program. Nontheless, many illegal aliens do pay taxes, even though they will not get this money back themselves:
"Many illegal immigrants pay up at tax time
By Travis Loller, Associated Press
NASHVILLE — The tax system collects its due, even from a class of workers with little likelihood of claiming a refund and no hope of drawing a Social Security check.
Illegal immigrants are paying taxes to Uncle Sam, experts agree. Just how much they pay is hard to determine because the federal government doesn't fully tally it. But the latest figures available indicate it will amount to billions of dollars in federal income, Social Security and Medicare taxes this year. One rough estimate puts the amount of Social Security taxes alone at around $9 billion per year.
Paycheck withholding collects much of the federal tax from illegal workers, just as it does for legal workers. ..."
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm
Even the IRS acknowledges this:
"IRS seminars, IDs help illegal immigrants pay US taxes
It's been just an hour, but tax counselors at a recent IRS seminar at an immigrant community center have already seen 100 people and are facing an overflow crowd in the waiting room hoping for tax help.
These people aren't in a quandary over new tax laws or changes to the code. These are illegal immigrants who – up until today – have been using false social security numbers to work in the United States. Immigrants like them are flocking in record numbers to IRS offices and seminars such as this one to learn how to become legal US taxpayers.
The IRS has been quietly supporting this activity since 1996 when it created an individual taxpayer identification number designed for anyone who doesn't have a social security number...."
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0321/p02s01-ussc.html
As far as your questions:
1) Well, I feel extremely lucky to live in this country. Had the people that immigrated before my ancestors felt the same way as this, I might not be here. Therefore, I believe I should support policies that allow the same for others;
2) Well, the jerks that perpetrated the attacks on 9/11 were legal:
"As we know from the sizable illegal traffic across our land borders, a terrorist could
attempt to bypass legal procedures and enter the United States surreptitiously. None of
the 9/11 attackers entered or tried to enter our country this way. So today we will focus
on the hijackers’ exploitation of legal entry systems. We have handed out a list of the
names of 9/11 attackers to help you follow our discussion..."
http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/staff_statement_1.pdf
Even if we closed all of our borders, there will still be these evil, sick jerks that come here legally - I believe they have been called 'sleeper cells'.
Peace and God bless,
< Message edited by Lizahana -- 6/8/2008 10:33:39 AM >
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 11:16:05 PM
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saved9201
Posts: 668
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeff_from_Kentucky
Actually Julius, if you go back and look at all of the reasons we went in (and there were at least a half dozen), helping Iraq develop a stable Democracy WAS one of the reasons though ridding them of WMD's was the one that was waived around the most, as John Kerry kept pointing out in 2004.
Now you say helping Iraq develop a "stable democracy" is just one of the missions, not THE mission? So basically, Bush and his buddies went to Iraq with a "to do" list. So ya think helping Iraq develop a stable democracy is the last thing on the "to do" list? Cause so far, I think he's been adding things to the list every time he crosses something out. I would just like to know because when someone like you says we should stay until the mission is complete, the job is done, it would be nice to know what job or jobs the president is talking about.
quote:
As far as my example of American Independence and the problems our nation faced in the early years compared to what is going on in Iraq, it was completely appropriate and accurate. We wouldn't celebrate our Independence every July 4th if they had failed now would we?
Yes, because they call it Independence Day, NOT Stable Democracy Day, because that is the day we celebrate getting our Independence from England, NOT the after we faced our problems and finally achieved a stable democracy (whenever that was). I'm not as much of an expert on American History as you are, Jeff, so tell me.....during the American Revolution, what country invaded the USA, helped us overthrow English rule, and militarily occupied us and helped us achieve our stable democracy and stayed until the "job" was done?
Are they still here?
quote:
The point you seem to be missing is that these things take time. Whether we should have gone in or not is irrelevant now because the fact is we did go in and we are there. To leave before Iraq can take care of itself would be the most irresponsible thing this nation has ever done.
Conservatives kill me. You guys show so much compassion for the Iraqi people and have no problem spending gadzillions of dollars and risking thousands of lives to help a group of goat herders become stock brokers. Yet if someone here mentions providing free health care for people in our own country, you go berzerk. You call anyone a Marxist who dares suggest we spend some of your hard earned tax dollars to help an American family on the verge of losing his/her home.
And all those other mistakes we made in our history - slavery, our treatment of the native Americans, Vietnam, our response during the Katrina catastrophe - but to you, "the most irresponsible thing this nation has ever done", would be to do what?
quote:
By the way, once we are finished in Iraq, I believe that ALL of our troops that are currently based overseas in any nation should be brought home. We have no business having troops in Europe, Japan, North Korea, or any other place where we are not directly involved in a war.
I disagree with all of the above except North Korea. We should definitely bring our troops home from there. 
I know you mean South Korea. But I believe those countries actually want us over there. I would also advocate setting up permanent bases in Iraq if the Iraqi people were good with that and it was communicated to the American people that that is one of our "jobs."
But we went in without a clear mission or an exit strategy. Now we're in the "do something even if it's wrong" operating mode where, as you say, we're there now and feel like we can't leave until we do something - even if it's wrong.
- Julius
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RE: The Issues - 6/8/2008 12:48:50 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3758
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Well, John, I was just stating that I think it's hypocritical to make these people leave the country when they pay taxes - I was talking about the guest worker program - you know, where the people come here, work, pay taxes that you and I both pay, then get booted back home...so, not quite following you here...I was expressing an opinion about the guest worker program, which is what I initially asked you about.
Nothing hypocritical about the GUEST worker program.... It is what it is... It's not intended for people to stay forever... You know the program that allows compaines from other countries to have workers here for a certain matter of time... They are not BOOTED back home, the visa is for a certain amount of time...
John
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RE: The Issues - 6/8/2008 12:56:59 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3758
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Luke 6:27-36
[27] "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [29] If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. [30] Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. [31] Do to others as you would have them do to you.
[32] "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. [33] And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. [34] And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. [35] But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. [36] Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Let me know when you have the next meeting of NAMBLA in your home...
quote:
Well, I did include it on my signature - that way you don't have to bring it up each time, even when the discussion is not about abortion.
Actually to be honest it should read you believe the child of a rape should be put to death... No mention again something about the treatment of strangers or spreading the gospel...
quote:
Not that you'll read what I say, but, initially, you said that you're not to allow people into your household that do not believe in The Word.
The bible says that...
2 John 1:9-10 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
quote:
I think we should at least extend the same -welcoming those who want freedom - to others, IMHO.
We do... We have a immigration policy in place... It's not self serve, nor should it be...
quote:
No, I was just saying that if they pay taxes here, they should be able to live here.
It's called the GUEST worker program...
John
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RE: The Issues - 6/8/2008 1:11:11 AM
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inthysite
Posts: 619
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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For crying out loud. I leave this thread for just a day and look what happens, we have people attacking each other, arguing over abortion, arguing over Iraq, and immigration.
The intent of this thread was to give people a peaceful place to discuss the issues as they relate to the candidates and how they will determine the election. But I guess that is asking too much from Christians.
We all have our opinions regarding the issues and some of those conflict with others. In just about every other thread I read there are attacks against each other and the candidates and there are always, always complaints that we don't discuss the issues but rather engage in "fear and smear" tactics. It always has to boil down to insults, insinuations, attacks, and arguments.
Well at least I can say I tried.
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: The Issues - 6/8/2008 6:45:25 AM
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Jeff_from_Kentucky
Posts: 1637
Joined: 7/5/2006
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
during the American Revolution, what country invaded the USA, helped us overthrow English rule, and militarily occupied us and helped us achieve our stable democracy and stayed until the "job" was done?
You guys show so much compassion for the Iraqi people and have no problem spending gadzillions of dollars and risking thousands of lives to help a group of goat herders become stock brokers.
I know you mean South Korea. But I believe those countries actually want us over there. I would also advocate setting up permanent bases in Iraq if the Iraqi people were good with that and it was communicated to the American people that that is one of our "jobs."
Julius, whether you acknowledge it or not, one of the stated goals from the beginning was to establsih a stable democracy in Iraq. You may have forgotten that but I have not, as I was still in the military when the war started and I remember that being one of the stated goals.
As far as who sent troops here during our war for Independence? Well the Hessians (Germans) came and fought for England and the Prussians and the French had troops here helping us until the fighting was over. It was the blockade by the French navy at Yorktown that led to the surrender of Cornwallis. Once the fighting was over, the troops left. Is the fighting over in Iraq? No.
Oh, and the point I was making before is that we would not be celebrating Independence Day if we had lost the war or if our government had collapsed. England or another nation would have come back in and taken over and July 4th would be nothing more than a footnote in history.
You may consider the Iraqi people to be nothing more than "goat herders" but I consider them "people" who need our help, people who have never had the basic freedoms that you and I take for granted. Should we have gone in there in the first place? Probably not. But, the fact is, we did go and we are there. To leave now would be irresponsible whether you want to admit it or not. If we pull out now, then we'll have to go back in five or ten years and start over again. I doubt if you want that. I certainly don't.
As far as the other countries are concerned, it does not matter whether they want us there or not. Constitutionally, we have no business or authority having permanant bases in other countries. Those bases serve no purpose and weakens the defense of our own borders. Bring those troops home to guard our borders and our coasts. They serve no useful purpose where they are.
_____________________________
<< Frank Seamans and my son Jeffrey - September, 2007
"For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." Philippians 1:21
Dispatchers tell cops where to go!
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RE: The Issues - 6/8/2008 6:55:12 AM
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Jeff_from_Kentucky
Posts: 1637
Joined: 7/5/2006
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Even if we closed all of our borders, there will still be these evil, sick jacka#()$ that come here legally - I believe they have been called 'sleeper cells'.
Closed borders means that we stop ALL immigration, both legal and illegal. That is what I advocate. Close the borders and stop immigration until we can fix the problems that we have here such as homelessness, poverty, etc. If we had done that 10 years ago, 9/11 would not have happened and we would not have had a need or a reason to invade Afghanistan or Iraq. Think how much different this country would be today. Think of how many Americans could still be alive today if we had closed the borders ten years ago.
Once we fix our problems here at home, then we could reopen the borders in a few years and start allowing legal immigration again.
_____________________________
<< Frank Seamans and my son Jeffrey - September, 2007
"For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." Philippians 1:21
Dispatchers tell cops where to go!
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RE: The Issues - 6/8/2008 8:16:01 AM
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saved9201
Posts: 668
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeff_from_Kentucky
Julius, whether you acknowledge it or not, one of the stated goals from the beginning was to establsih a stable democracy in Iraq. You may have forgotten that but I have not, as I was still in the military when the war started and I remember that being one of the stated goals.
Maybe you're right Jeff. Maybe you were privy to information the rest of us weren't, or maybe we just forgot like you say. I seem to remember stuff told to us like "smoking guns turning into mushroom clouds" and weapons of mass destruction, and Saddam being an imminent threat to the USA and his ties to 9-11. Those are the reasons I remember. But I guess I'll have to defer to your superior memory powers cause I have no recollection.
"Former U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell says he spent two and a half hours trying to persuade President George W. Bush not to invade Iraq.
'I tried to avoid this war. I took him through the consequences of going into an Arab country and becoming the occupiers,' Powell told a packed audience at the 2007 Aspen Ideas Festival at the Aspen Institute.
'When we became liberators, we also became occupiers,' he said. 'There was no governing structure and we had to become that structure.'
'The civil war will ultimately be resolved by a test of arms. It's not going to be pretty to watch, but I don't know any way to avoid it. It is happening now,' Powell added.
'It is not a civil war that can be put down or solved by the armed forces of the United States,' he said."
Maybe someone should remind Colin Powell, who probably has lost his memory too, what our stated goal was from the onset, and that we would be doing the most irresponsible thing we've ever done in our history, if we leave now. That way, he won't be suggesting that what we did was unjustified.
quote:
As far as who sent troops here during our war for Independence? Well the Hessians (Germans) came and fought for England and the Prussians and the French had troops here helping us until the fighting was over. It was the blockade by the French navy at Yorktown that led to the surrender of Cornwallis.
I'm still waiting on you to tell me which of those countries invaded the USA to help us establish a stable democracy? Which country provided most of the manpower to topple the British on our soil? Which one of those countries helped us write our declaration of independence? Our constitution? Which country was occupying us until they decided we were stable? Which of the current Iraqi "founding fathers" are you comparing to George Washington and Thomas Jefferson? I'm sure they'd be thrilled with that comparison. Apples and oranges.
quote:
Once the fighting was over, the troops left. Is the fighting over in Iraq? No.
You know, and I know and the historians know, that will never happen. So I guess that will be our new stated mission that was actually our original mission that everybody else buy you forgot about: To make everybody in Iraq who've never liked each other before, like each other before we leave.
quote:
Oh, and the point I was making before is that we would not be celebrating Independence Day if we had lost the war or if our government had collapsed. England or another nation would have come back in and taken over and July 4th would be nothing more than a footnote in history.
Good point. So which invading occupying nation was nice enough to stay in the USA to insure that would never happen? I must have forgot about that too.
quote:
You may consider the Iraqi people to be nothing more than "goat herders" but I consider them "people" who need our help,
There are people in the USA who have needed our help over the years - Katrina victims, victims of the mortgage crisis, victims who have no healthcare - and the attitude of conservatives has been that these sorry lazy people need to help themselves. That's not the governments job. And none of those aforementioned victims go around placing IED's on the roads to kill folks trying to help them. Right now we have limited resources and these resources need to be used to help our own, NOT to pay some warlord so he'll be nice enough to not blow people up who are trying to help them establish a stable democracy.
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Should we have gone in there in the first place? Probably not.
Thank you.
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To leave now would be irresponsible whether you want to admit it or not. If we pull out now, then we'll have to go back in five or ten years and start over again.
No I won't admit it and no we don't have to go back just because they become unstable. Because I don't believe that's our job - Democracy building around the world. Now if Iraq becomes a legitimate threat to us or our allies over there, by all means we should help IF they ask (i.e. Kuwait). But to go back just to get in the middle of a civil war? No thanks.
quote:
As far as the other countries are concerned, it does not matter whether they want us there or not. Constitutionally, we have no business or authority having permanant bases in other countries.
What does the constitution say about us invading a sovereign nation just to establish a "stable democracy"?
quote:
Those bases serve no purpose and weakens the defense of our own borders.
No, committing our troops and tax dollars to unjust wars serves no purpose and weakens the defense of our own borders.
quote:
They serve no useful purpose where they are.
Some overseas and domestic bases could be closed, I agree. However, I was in military intelligence for 23 years so I know a little about the "useful purposes" of some of our overseas bases. But you're entitled to your opinion.
-Julius
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RE: The Issues - 6/8/2008 10:13:45 AM
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Lizahana
Posts: 982
Joined: 4/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Well, John, I was just stating that I think it's hypocritical to make these people leave the country when they pay taxes - I was talking about the guest worker program - you know, where the people come here, work, pay taxes that you and I both pay, then get booted back home...so, not quite following you here...I was expressing an opinion about the guest worker program, which is what I initially asked you about.
Nothing hypocritical about the GUEST worker program.... It is what it is... It's not intended for people to stay forever... You know the program that allows compaines from other countries to have workers here for a certain matter of time... They are not BOOTED back home, the visa is for a certain amount of time...
John
I'm happy to report, John, that I can have my own opinion - and, I clearly said that if they pay taxes here, they should be able to live here - JMHO.
Peace and God bless,
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RE: The Issues - 6/8/2008 10:19:53 AM
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Lizahana
Posts: 982
Joined: 4/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Luke 6:27-36
[27] "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [29] If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. [30] Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. [31] Do to others as you would have them do to you.
[32] "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. [33] And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. [34] And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. [35] But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. [36] Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
quote:
Let me know when you have the next meeting of NAMBLA in your home...
Not sure what that has to do with this discussion. 
quote:
Well, I did include it on my signature - that way you don't have to bring it up each time, even when the discussion is not about abortion.
quote:
Actually to be honest it should read you believe the child of a rape should be put to death... No mention again something about the treatment of strangers or spreading the gospel...
Well, no, John, I said that if I was raped, I'm pretty sure (99.9%) I would not have an abortion. Can't say for sure, since I've never been raped.
quote:
Not that you'll read what I say, but, initially, you said that you're not to allow people into your household that do not believe in The Word.
quote:
The bible says that...
2 John 1:9-10 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
quote:
I think we should at least extend the same -welcoming those who want freedom - to others, IMHO.
quote:
We do... We have a immigration policy in place... It's not self serve, nor should it be...
Well, John, as I've stated before, if people pay taxes here, they should be able to live here - JMHO - and I did post showing where even illegal aliens pay taxes, some believe upwards of $9 billion / year in SS alone. Please DO let me know if you'd like to see these again.
quote:
No, I was just saying that if they pay taxes here, they should be able to live here.
quote:
It's called the GUEST worker program...
John
Again, if people pay taxes here, they should be able to live here - and I did post showing where even illegal aliens pay taxes, some believe upwards of $9 billion / year in SS alone. Please DO let me know if you'd like to see these again.
Peace and God bless,
< Message edited by Lizahana -- 6/8/2008 10:28:49 AM >
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RE: The Issues - 6/8/2008 10:23:15 AM
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Lizahana
Posts: 982
Joined: 4/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: inthysite
For crying out loud. I leave this thread for just a day and look what happens, we have people attacking each other, arguing over abortion, arguing over Iraq, and immigration.
The intent of this thread was to give people a peaceful place to discuss the issues as they relate to the candidates and how they will determine the election. But I guess that is asking too much from Christians.
We all have our opinions regarding the issues and some of those conflict with others. In just about every other thread I read there are attacks against each other and the candidates and there are always, always complaints that we don't discuss the issues but rather engage in "fear and smear" tactics. It always has to boil down to insults, insinuations, attacks, and arguments.
Well at least I can say I tried.
I apologize if it was me. I was discussing immigration, and someone brought up my stance on abortion (don't know why it had anything to do with the discussion), when we were not even discussing that.
Peace and God bless,
PS I also changed my description of the 9/11 terrorists from jacka#()$ to jerks. Sorry if it was bad to describe them that way.
< Message edited by Lizahana -- 6/8/2008 10:34:46 AM >
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RE: The Issues - 6/8/2008 10:26:43 AM
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Lizahana
Posts: 982
Joined: 4/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeff_from_Kentucky
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Even if we closed all of our borders, there will still be these evil, sick jacka#()$ that come here legally - I believe they have been called 'sleeper cells'.
Closed borders means that we stop ALL immigration, both legal and illegal. That is what I advocate. Close the borders and stop immigration until we can fix the problems that we have here such as homelessness, poverty, etc. If we had done that 10 years ago, 9/11 would not have happened and we would not have had a need or a reason to invade Afghanistan or Iraq. Think how much different this country would be today. Think of how many Americans could still be alive today if we had closed the borders ten years ago.
Once we fix our problems here at home, then we could reopen the borders in a few years and start allowing legal immigration again.
Well, I respecfully disagree with that - I believe that would be called a closed society & am not sure that is what the founding fathers intended for our country. I feel so extremely lucky to be here that if that had been done before my ancestors came across, many, many people would not be here, including me.
Peace and God bless,
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RE: The Issues - 6/8/2008 10:55:52 AM
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Jeff_from_Kentucky
Posts: 1637
Joined: 7/5/2006
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Well, I respecfully disagree with that - I believe that would be called a closed society & am not sure that is what the founding fathers intended for our country. I feel so extremely lucky to be here that if that had been done before my ancestors came across, many, many people would not be here, including me.
Peace and God bless,
I am not saying that we should permanantly close the borders. I am just saying that we should close them until we can fix the problems we already have, maybe five to ten years. What is wrong with that?
_____________________________
<< Frank Seamans and my son Jeffrey - September, 2007
"For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." Philippians 1:21
Dispatchers tell cops where to go!
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RE: The Issues - 6/8/2008 11:16:11 AM
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Jeff_from_Kentucky
Posts: 1637
Joined: 7/5/2006
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
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Julius, I guess selective memory does have its advantages, doesn't it? 
I have already admitted that the primary reason was WMD's. However, when the President laid out his reasoning before the American people, he listed several reasons and goals, not just WMD's. One of those goals was to establish a stable democracy in Iraq. All of the liberals seems to have conveniently forgotten that fact.
By the way, do you know who came up with the idea of making the world "safe for democracy?" That was one of our most liberal President's, Woodrow Wison, the mentor of FDR. Imagine that! President Bush is following a liberal principle!
Another thing I want to mention to you is how you are focusing on one issue I brought up and ignoring everything else I stand for. You keep harping on the cost of the war and how that money could be better spent to help people here. I won't disagree with that. If you look at the other issues I posted about, you would see that helping those here is one of my primary goals. That is why I want to close our borders to immigrants for a period of time and bring our overseas troops home. I also want to end foreign aid to all other nations, though this is the first time I have posted that on here. The money saved from those things I mentioned could be better used to solve the problems in this country. And once we are finished in Iraq then we would have even more money to spend here at home.
As far as the American Revolution is concerned, I have already told you that France and Prussia sent troops to help us drive out the British and win our independence. Are you familiar with the names Lafayette and Von Stuben? The truth is, we could not have developed without their assistance. It would not have happened. Cornwallis would have escaped from Yorktown, regrouped, and kicked our backsides just like he was doing before Yorktown.
_____________________________
<< Frank Seamans and my son Jeffrey - September, 2007
"For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." Philippians 1:21
Dispatchers tell cops where to go!
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RE: The Issues - 6/8/2008 1:16:27 PM
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inthysite
Posts: 619
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: henny
This thread is a good idea and I think we need something like this in the election folder, but I think it would work better if we divided things up 1 issue per thread (kind of like Jhud's "Health Care" thread a couple weeks ago, which I think was a good example of how to set a thread like this up), as opposed to just having
"issues" in general as the topic. It'd probably be easier to keep people on track and from veering off into the usual rhetoric if the focus was bit narrower.
Although threads with any substance (or threads who make an attempt at substance) never last long anyway. The only way they last is if the "usual crowd" comes in an highjack things with over the top rhetoric or hot button issues like abortion/immigration.
But it was a valiant attempt, so I commend you for that. 
Thanks for the compliment. Jhud's thread was actually the inspiration for this one. So many people complain about not discussing the issues, yet when he posted his thread on healthcare it didn't last very long and only a few people posted.
So I thought that if I made it a little more general it would attract more interest. It started out great but then "BAM!" Oh well, I had expected as much.
As I first stated when I started this:
quote:
inthysite
I know I'm asking a lot and I doubt this will go anywhere as someone else had tried to do a thread on issues alone but people seem to be here for the blood and gore but I thought I would give it a try. So let the games begin.
So, to continue the direction this thread has taken...
I believe what I believe and what I believe is right and you all are wrong, so there!
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: The Issues - 6/8/2008 1:57:12 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3758
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Well, John, I was just stating that I think it's hypocritical to make these people leave the country when they pay taxes - I was talking about the guest worker program - you know, where the people come here, work, pay taxes that you and I both pay, then get booted back home...so, not quite following you here...I was expressing an opinion about the guest worker program, which is what I initially asked you about.
Nothing hypocritical about the GUEST worker program.... It is what it is... It's not intended for people to stay forever... You know the program that allows compaines from other countries to have workers here for a certain matter of time... They are not BOOTED back home, the visa is for a certain amount of time...
John
I'm happy to report, John, that I can have my own opinion - and, I clearly said that if they pay taxes here, they should be able to live here - JMHO.
Having and or stating an opinion doesn't lend itself to the opinion having any validity... Your view regarding the quest worker program seem to ignore its intended purpose... Which of course has NOTHING to do with citizenship...
John
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RE: The Issues - 6/8/2008 2:07:54 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3758
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Not sure what that has to do with this discussion.
You are a proponent of an open door policy.. Let’s see if your actions mach your banter when you host the next meeting of a group that wishes to make it legal to for men to have sex with boys…
quote:
Well, no, John, I said that if I was raped, I'm pretty sure (99.9%) I would not have an abortion. Can't say for sure, since I've never been raped.
You said you support the right of a person to put to death the child of rape... Yet, you wouldn't support putting the rapist to death... For the record the bible doesn't support the the right of anyone to put the child to death, yet is calls for the death of raptist...
quote:
and I did post showing where even illegal aliens pay taxes, some believe upwards of $9 billion / year in SS alone. Please DO let me know if you'd like to see these again.
So... In one year illegal aliens cost California alone 18 billion...
John
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RE: The Issues - 6/8/2008 2:10:58 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3758
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
I apologize if it was me. I was discussing immigration, and someone brought up my stance on abortion (don't know why it had anything to do with the discussion), when we were not even discussing that.
I mentioned it because you spoke of the treatment of others yet you feel it's ok to murder some people yet another person can break the law while entering the country and it's ok... That's called hypocrisy...
John
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RE: The Issues - 6/8/2008 2:12:25 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3758
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeff_from_Kentucky
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Even if we closed all of our borders, there will still be these evil, sick jacka#()$ that come here legally - I believe they have been called 'sleeper cells'.
Closed borders means that we stop ALL immigration, both legal and illegal. That is what I advocate. Close the borders and stop immigration until we can fix the problems that we have here such as homelessness, poverty, etc. If we had done that 10 years ago, 9/11 would not have happened and we would not have had a need or a reason to invade Afghanistan or Iraq. Think how much different this country would be today. Think of how many Americans could still be alive today if we had closed the borders ten years ago.
Once we fix our problems here at home, then we could reopen the borders in a few years and start allowing legal immigration again.
Well, I respecfully disagree with that - I believe that would be called a closed society & am not sure that is what the founding fathers intended for our country. I feel so extremely lucky to be here that if that had been done before my ancestors came across, many, many people would not be here, including me.
Peace and God bless,
The Founding Fathers set up a Republic found on the rule of law so given your views I don't believe you understand their intentions very well...
John
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