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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 12:59:00 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Nope, because numbers 3 and 4 of post 121 explains that this something must be above all other existence and seperate from it.
But it can't be above everything according to the following premise:
1) Everything that "is" exists due to a cause. It does not have the power of being within itself due to the fact that it exists because of something else.
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 1:21:10 PM
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PromiseLander
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You know why parts of the Bible like the book of Revelation and Daniel seem so crazy? It's because the process of attempting to describe something like God in mere human terms comes frightfully close to driving a man mad.
If something exists, it must have had a cause. Take that back to the original cause, and we learn that the prime mover does something that is greater than just "existing." (Hence God's name for Himself in the Bible: "I AM.") Or else theoretical arguments could be made for the originator's cause. We know that this universe had a beginning - the very nature of observational science reveals there was a beginning; therefore it is illogical to question the originator's cause, as there couldn't have been a cause for the originator or we risk attempting to visualize an infinate number of originators... Whatever shall come to an end has only one beginning.
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 1:35:22 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
If something exists, it must have had a cause.
Does God exist?
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 1:44:31 PM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
If something exists, it must have had a cause.
Does God exist?
That question has been platformed to me when I witness by so many atheists that I've lost count... The Bible says that "The fool has said in his heart there is no God." Further, those same people "suppress the Truth in unrighteousness." and again, everyone knows there is a God, for He has revealed it to them in His creation so that His invisible attributes are clearly seen in the things that are MADE.
It is evident that everything that is MADE has existence, it is NOT correct to say that everything that EXISTS was made. (If everything in existence was made, then how was it first made?)
God exists, but seperate from what is made so that what is made had a beginning, but He who exists but was not made had no beginning and will never end. This is the origination.
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 1:46:32 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
God exists, but seperate from what is made so that what is made had a beginning, but He who exists but was not made had no beginning and will never end. This is the origination.
I think your problem is that you keep leaving a word out - everything that begins to exist has a cause of it's existence.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 1:49:10 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
It is evident that everything that is MADE has existence, it is NOT correct to say that everything that EXISTS was made. (If everything in existence was made, then how was it first made?)
Then you need to show that the Universe was made but God was not.
quote:
God exists, but seperate from what is made so that what is made had a beginning, but He who exists but was not made had no beginning and will never end. This is the origination.
If God exists then God had to be caused, as per your first premise:
1) Everything that "is" exists due to a cause. It does not have the power of being within itself due to the fact that it exists because of something else.
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 1:50:10 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I think your problem is that you keep leaving a word out - everything that begins to exist has a cause of it's existence.
Then you need to show that God did not have a beginning. So far, this has only been established through empty assertion.
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 1:52:06 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Then you need to show that God did not have a beginning. So far, this has only been established through empty assertion.
I don't need to show it, something had not to have a beginning - that is part of what God is. If He had a beginning, He would simply be another creature.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 1:54:31 PM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
God exists, but seperate from what is made so that what is made had a beginning, but He who exists but was not made had no beginning and will never end. This is the origination.
I think your problem is that you keep leaving a word out - everything that begins to exist has a cause of it's existence.
I think you're right...
At any rate, I've lost a lot of hair over this discussion...
I wish someone who has been taught under Dr. Sproul would step in and explain it better than I can.
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 1:59:30 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
I think you're right...
At any rate, I've lost a lot of hair over this discussion...
I wish someone who has been taught under Dr. Sproul would step in and explain it better than I can.
He's a great man, keep listening to him and you will only grow in wosdom.
I reccomend Wlliam Lane Craig as well.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 2:01:38 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
I think you're right...
At any rate, I've lost a lot of hair over this discussion...
I wish someone who has been taught under Dr. Sproul would step in and explain it better than I can.
I do think that there is a good and compelling philosophical proof in there somewhere. The problem thus far is your first premise.
The other interesting aside is that theoretical physicists are looking for a something that produces universes. The canard of "something from nothing" does not pertain to our universe. Physicists are looking for that something. They have devised theories that are in their infancy such as String theory and M Theory. The hurdle that your proof must cross is showing that God MUST BE the cause of the universe and not some other non-deistic mechanism. That's a tough hurdle. If scientists do discover a non-deistic mechanism that produces universes then God must retreat to another realm where He produces the mechanism. If again scientists discover the mechanism behind the mechanism that God must retreat once again. This is why I discussed an "infinite retreat" as being a bigger problem for theology than the infinite regress found in science.
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 2:04:50 PM
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PromiseLander
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So much time and effort has been expended in an attempt to prove God's existence. The more I have attempted to do this myself, the more I realize that it isn't necessary; for God has already revealed Himself through what is made.
The only reason people say that there is no God is because in the end, they do not want to admit that they have done anything wrong, and they refuse to be accountable for their actions. When I witness, people say: "I'm not a bad person compared to others..." Then of course they will later admit to me that they have lied in their lifetime, or that they have stolen something, or that they have lusted before... Then of course they get embarrassed when you tell them, "Well doesn't that make you a lying, theiving, adulterer at heart?" The sinful person will have to face God on judgement day, and what defense will they have? "Oh, I believe you are a loving God and that you'll forgive me..." Well, He is a loving God, but because He is loving, justice must be meaded out for sin - sin must be punished...
So the best defense that they can come up with is "Well then there is no God!" To that I liken the man who is bouncing himself off of a padded wall repeating to himself "there's nothing wrong with me!"
There is a God. This existence screams out the works of the Maker so that those who deny His existence are without an excuse.
Repent friend, repent.
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 2:06:37 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
I do think that there is a good and compelling philosophical proof in there somewhere. The problem thus far is your first premise.
The other interesting aside is that theoretical physicists are looking for a something that produces universes. The canard of "something from nothing" does not pertain to our universe. Physicists are looking for that something. They have devised theories that are in their infancy such as String theory and M Theory. The hurdle that your proof must cross is showing that God MUST BE the cause of the universe and not some other non-deistic mechanism. That's a tough hurdle. If scientists do discover a non-deistic mechanism that produces universes then God must retreat to another realm where He produces the mechanism. If again scientists discover the mechanism behind the mechanism that God must retreat once again.
I think science of any pragmatic sort pretty much ceases at the universe's edge, whatever physicists may be looking for.
quote:
This is why I discussed an "infinite retreat" as being a bigger problem for theology than the infinite regress found in science.
Actually, in all our science, there isn't a single instance where God (of the Biblical sort) has had to 'retreat' one iota.
If anything, it has been pretty definitively demonstrated that certain physical phenomena continually defy mindless mechanical causes.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 2:10:35 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I think science of any pragmatic sort pretty much ceases at the universe's edge, whatever physicists may be looking for.
People from past centuries believed that scientific investigation stopped at the edge of our atmosphere.
quote:
Actually, in all our science, there isn't a single instance where God (of the Biblical sort) has had to 'retreat' one iota.
I guess you have never heard of creationism.
quote:
If anything, it has been pretty definitively demonstrated that certain physical phenomena continually defy mindless mechanical causes.
So when will we see Thor from weather satellites?
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 2:11:29 PM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Method
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
I think you're right...
At any rate, I've lost a lot of hair over this discussion...
I wish someone who has been taught under Dr. Sproul would step in and explain it better than I can.
I do think that there is a good and compelling philosophical proof in there somewhere. The problem thus far is your first premise.
The other interesting aside is that theoretical physicists are looking for a something that produces universes. The canard of "something from nothing" does not pertain to our universe. Physicists are looking for that something. They have devised theories that are in their infancy such as String theory and M Theory. The hurdle that your proof must cross is showing that God MUST BE the cause of the universe and not some other non-deistic mechanism. That's a tough hurdle. If scientists do discover a non-deistic mechanism that produces universes then God must retreat to another realm where He produces the mechanism. If again scientists discover the mechanism behind the mechanism that God must retreat once again. This is why I discussed an "infinite retreat" as being a bigger problem for theology than the infinite regress found in science.
In there somewhere... Yeah, that's probably why architects like me should stick to mathematics and geometry and not delve into philosophy... Yikes... I can talk Theology all day long, but when Dr. Sproul said this I felt I had to share it - the problem is that philosophy and architecture don't really mix unless you're attempting to describe the style of column capitals that were on the structure of the Areopogus.
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 2:24:07 PM
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drj11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
So much time and effort has been expended in an attempt to prove God's existence. The more I have attempted to do this myself, the more I realize that it isn't necessary; for God has already revealed Himself through what is made.
The only reason people say that there is no God is because in the end, they do not want to admit that they have done anything wrong, and they refuse to be accountable for their actions.
Quite a self centered view. Youre over simplifying it to say that atheists are just kinda like little children, trying hide from their parents while they eat all the cookies out of the cookie jar. Its not an intellectually honest approach to viewing most rational atheists positions.
quote:
When I witness, people say: "I'm not a bad person compared to others..." Then of course they will later admit to me that they have lied in their lifetime, or that they have stolen something, or that they have lusted before... Then of course they get embarrassed when you tell them, "Well doesn't that make you a lying, theiving, adulterer at heart?"
What a nasty thing to say to someone.
quote:
The sinful person will have to face God on judgement day, and what defense will they have? "Oh, I believe you are a loving God and that you'll forgive me..." Well, He is a loving God, but because He is loving, justice must be meaded out for sin - sin must be punished...
So the best defense that they can come up with is "Well then there is no God!" To that I liken the man who is bouncing himself off of a padded wall repeating to himself "there's nothing wrong with me!"
Imagine you have been raised in a household that is not religious. You look around and wonder if there might be something to this God thing... which religion do you pick? One religions moral virtue is another's mortal sin.
quote:
There is a God. This existence screams out the works of the Maker so that those who deny His existence are without an excuse.
Repent friend, repent.
Repent to which God? They all have different rules.
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 2:41:13 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
People from past centuries believed that scientific investigation stopped at the edge of our atmosphere.
No, no scientist did this.
But if they had, it would only be because they thought the universe ended there - you are stating that science can investigate that which is by definition beyond the universe - it cannot.
quote:
I guess you have never heard of creationism.
Let me repeat, I did not say a theory did not have to retreat (in fact, true scientific theories should change over time) I said the God of the Bible has not retreated one iota - indeed, science has discovered as many challenges as it has answered.
quote:
So when will we see Thor from weather satellites?
If I were to judge from your reading ability I would have to conclude that Friday is your drinking day.
"it has been pretty definitively demonstrated that certain physical phenomena continually defy mindless mechanical causes."
Which is true.
< Message edited by Jhud -- 6/13/2008 3:05:17 PM >
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 2:55:30 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
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quote:
There is a God. This existence screams out the works of the Maker so that those who deny His existence are without an excuse.
I believe it when you put it like that! You see, it may be that God is loud and clear to all with ears to hear!
Proof is nothing to those who refuse to believe! Even if they carry an airtight syllogism proving God in their minds, repeating it like a mantra, would they then have God in ther hearts? They would be farthest from it, because they would have a constant excuse to remind themselves of their own wisdom, for THEY had proven God, they had revealed Him, rather than Him to us!
So, I am heartened that you have found it like beating yourself against a wall trying to relate to those who deny God despite ANYTHING objective one can point to (and what else are we supposed to point to if not things that are external, that are objective!!!). Thanks for trying!! Thanks for coming as a believer, acknowledging his weakness in science! We might find that we are beating our heads against a wall to say the things which seem like secular or objective affirmations of God's existence, but let's not turn around and beat the non-believer with hunks from that same wall! If they cannot or will not make the leap of faith over the unknowable based on what is known, can the known world break through this wall merely out of some sentiment like, "it is the modern age, we have all this knowledge and learning. time to start acting like it and accept the God, the source of it all." The wall is here to stay. We can't build ladders over it, burrow under or desintegrate it; one can only leap over it. Because the wall is of our own making. If we are all little gods, then we have found that "rock so heavy that god can't lift it." It is called faith. We cannot do it alone. And perhaps that rock for God is us -- we cannot be lifted over the wall if we refuse to be, so far as we know. I can't say whether God will anyway in the end. Still, if we are made in God's image, one can appreciate their may be a symmetry between our will to sin and His will to save. God has shown us true love, because there was a risk involved -- that some of us would refuse it.
Aside from that, science is a Godly activity in that it consists in the process of fulfilling God's commission to name all things in Creation -- it is the process of seeing everything that He has made! Surely that is to his glory, but does it prove who he is objectively? Adam knew of God because they spoke directly; it wasn't a revelation arising out of contemplation of the Garden's splendor. But when a creature refuses to hear God's voice, then is it up to teh rest of Creation to simply shout louder into his hear? Can the whole of Creation be louder than God Himself? If the snake comes along to trick a man into rebellion, then is it up to the wise old monkey to return him to the fold? On the contrary, it is between him and God.
And so on!
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 3:12:12 PM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
quote:
There is a God. This existence screams out the works of the Maker so that those who deny His existence are without an excuse.
I believe it when you put it like that! You see, it may be that God is loud and clear to all with ears to hear!
Proof is nothing to those who refuse to believe! Even if they carry an airtight syllogism proving God in their minds, repeating it like a mantra, would they then have God in ther hearts? They would be farthest from it, because they would have a constant excuse to remind themselves of their own wisdom, for THEY had proven God, they had revealed Him, rather than Him to us!
So, I am heartened that you have found it like beating yourself against a wall trying to relate to those who deny God despite ANYTHING objective one can point to (and what else are we supposed to point to if not things that are external, that are objective!!!). Thanks for trying!! Thanks for coming as a believer, acknowledging his weakness in science! We might find that we are beating our heads against a wall to say the things which seem like secular or objective affirmations of God's existence, but let's not turn around and beat the non-believer with hunks from that same wall! If they cannot or will not make the leap of faith over the unknowable based on what is known, can the known world break through this wall merely out of some sentiment like, "it is the modern age, we have all this knowledge and learning. time to start acting like it and accept the God, the source of it all." The wall is here to stay. We can't build ladders over it, burrow under or desintegrate it; one can only leap over it. Because the wall is of our own making. If we are all little gods, then we have found that "rock so heavy that god can't lift it." It is called faith. We cannot do it alone. And perhaps that rock for God is us -- we cannot be lifted over the wall if we refuse to be, so far as we know. I can't say whether God will anyway in the end. Still, if we are made in God's image, one can appreciate their may be a symmetry between our will to sin and His will to save. God has shown us true love, because there was a risk involved -- that some of us would refuse it.
Aside from that, science is a Godly activity in that it consists in the process of fulfilling God's commission to name all things in Creation -- it is the process of seeing everything that He has made! Surely that is to his glory, but does it prove who he is objectively? Adam knew of God because they spoke directly; it wasn't a revelation arising out of contemplation of the Garden's splendor. But when a creature refuses to hear God's voice, then is it up to teh rest of Creation to simply shout louder into his hear? Can the whole of Creation be louder than God Himself? If the snake comes along to trick a man into rebellion, then is it up to the wise old monkey to return him to the fold? On the contrary, it is between him and God.
And so on!
So I suppose the next thing to consider is if it is even possible to argue God's existence from a scientific perspective? (This is a question by the way, as I have admitted, I am no scientist) Science is after all, an observation of things we may interact with amongst our 5 senses - God is of course above all that. Yes, men have interacted with God in the physical sense - and we have their witness recorded in reliable format, but what to do with the "show-me" generation? An understanding and life in Christ requires faith, but these people want to see miracles. I suppose not much has changed in 2,000 years... To those who are not called by God, signs and wonders have no persuasion... And atheistic science has conjured answers to questions from an unbelieving world.
So what do we do? Give them God's Word and let God do a work on them. We are required to scatter the seed, nothing more.
If this thread has proved anything, it's that the wisdom of men cannot persuade men - only GOD can persuade men, and IF our foolish arguments happen to persuade any, it is only because God still speaks through rocks and donkeys. Amen.
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 3:21:02 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
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quote:
... If this thread has proved anything, it's that the wisdom of men cannot persuade men - only GOD can persuade men, and IF our foolish arguments happen to persuade any, it is only because God still speaks through rocks and donkeys. Amen.
Word! Liked what you said.
Yeah, I don't think science qua science can say anything about God. A scientist can choose that calling out of a sense of God's will -- heck, He explicitly commissioned it! But for science to say something about God would be for the proposition "God exists" to be a testable one! And we all know, "thou shouldn't put thy Lord God to the test!"
However, it's always good to question people. If human wisdom cannot convey the Truth of God, it can certainly challenge other HUMAN lies!
see ya!
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 3:43:32 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
No, no scientist did this.
The one's who believed the stars were impregnated in a solid dome of the firmament did.
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But if they had, it would only be because they thought the universe ended there - you are stating that science can investigate that which is by definition beyond the universe - it cannot.
No, I am saying that science can investigate what is by definition capable of being investigated. No one has shown that the era prior to the start of our universe is incapable of being investigated. It is entirely possible that the mechanism which produced our universe left evidence in our universe that we can study. It is also possible that we can create our own universes and learn how universes come about.
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Let me repeat, I did not say a theory did not have to retreat (in fact, true scientific theories should change over time) I said the God of the Bible has not retreated one iota - indeed, science has discovered as many challenges as it has answered.
Just as Thor has not retreated?
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If I were to judge from your reading ability I would have to conclude that Friday is your drinking day.
Ahh, I see. When you can't deal with my arguments you sling insults.
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"it has been pretty definitively demonstrated that certain physical phenomena continually defy mindless mechanical causes."
Which is true.
The production of stars, planets, and biodiversity are not among the pheneomena that defy mindless mechanical causes.
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 3:47:53 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
In there somewhere... Yeah, that's probably why architects like me should stick to mathematics and geometry and not delve into philosophy... Yikes... I can talk Theology all day long, but when Dr. Sproul said this I felt I had to share it - the problem is that philosophy and architecture don't really mix unless you're attempting to describe the style of column capitals that were on the structure of the Areopogus.
If none of us shared what we found compelling it would be a very boring forum.;) Jhud's idea of "something with a beginning" has merit and helps us differentiate between "things". With the axiomic condition of God not having a beginning it works. The tough part is the assumption that God did not have a beginning. This just begs for support other than empty assertion.
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 3:50:27 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7386
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
The one's who believed the stars were impregnated in a solid dome of the firmament did.
Which 'scientist' did this?
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No, I am saying that science can investigate what is by definition capable of being investigated. No one has shown that the era prior to the start of our universe is incapable of being investigated. It is entirely possible that the mechanism which produced our universe left evidence in our universe that we can study. It is also possible that we can create our own universes and learn how universes come about.
Well, yes, I am quite sure if someone did create a universe, you would deny that was evidence that a universe can be the product of a creator.
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Just as Thor has not retreated?
Let me repeat again:
I said the God of the Bible has not retreated one iota.
Whether 'Thor' or 'creationists' retreat is irrelevant to this statement, since neither Thor nor creationists are the God of the Bible.
And incidentally, Thor retreated before Christianity, from which science also sprung - he didn't retreat before science.
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Ahh, I see. When you can't deal with my arguments you sling insults.
No, when your arguments cease to make sense I get concerned about your well being.
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The production of stars, planets, and biodiversity are not among the pheneomena that defy mindless mechanical causes.
Certain phenomena defy mindless mechanical cause.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 3:55:57 PM
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Method
Posts: 1162
Joined: 9/19/2007
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Jhud
Which 'scientist' did this?
In the modern sense of the word no such scientist existed in this time period. People believed that the natural world stopped at the firmament which was a hard dome over the Earth where the planets, Sun, and stars were embedded. That was the edge of the universe. Now you come telling us that we can't see beyond our universe. I can't help but think that you believe ignorance (that is, all of our ignorance) is permanent. I don't see why scientific investigation is limited to our universe and the last 13.7 billion years of history.
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Well, yes, I am quite sure if someone did create a universe, you would deny that was evidence that a universe can be the product of a creator.
If a deity comes down and produces a universe within the lab I would fully accept it.
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Let me repeat again:
I said the God of the Bible has not retreated one iota.
God of the Bible has retreated as the creator of planets and stars as much as Thor has retreated as the creator of lightning.
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Certain phenomena defy mindless mechanical cause.
Mantras do not an argument make.
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RE: Philisophical proof of God the Creator - 6/13/2008 4:02:57 PM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 358
Joined: 1/14/2008
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Method
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ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
In there somewhere... Yeah, that's probably why architects like me should stick to mathematics and geometry and not delve into philosophy... Yikes... I can talk Theology all day long, but when Dr. Sproul said this I felt I had to share it - the problem is that philosophy and architecture don't really mix unless you're attempting to describe the style of column capitals that were on the structure of the Areopogus.
If none of us shared what we found compelling it would be a very boring forum.;) Jhud's idea of "something with a beginning" has merit and helps us differentiate between "things". With the axiomic condition of God not having a beginning it works. The tough part is the assumption that God did not have a beginning. This just begs for support other than empty assertion.
Well, if we can't go by what has been written down, then it's safe to assume that George Washington never existed. None of us have ever met George Washington; we only know about him through written documentation. There has been much more written about Jesus Christ and the doctrines taught by Him than there ever was about George Washington. So why is it easier to believe that he existed, but God didn't? Is it because the stories sound too incredible to be true? Well, I'm sure that a heavier than air powered flight sounded too incredible to be true until it was witnessed.
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