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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/24/2008 10:41:05 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1775
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Yes...I'm equally as bad because I misunderstood the same post.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/25/2008 2:27:03 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1903
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Machaira
FreeGrace,
You failed to answer my question.
How does a man muster up faith and turn to the Lord with a hardened mind and a veiled heart, when a hardened mind and a veiled heart would only serve to prevent such a turning in the first place?
Here's another attempt to introduce a red herring (or shall we say set up a straw man) which has no bearing on the subject.
It has been stated numerous times that "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom. 10;17) and that the preaching of the Gospel is essential in order for sinners to be saved. Indeed it is a clear command of Christ (Mk. 16:15,16).
Furthermore, it has been pointed out from Scripture that the Gospel is not hocus-pocus but must be understood by the ones hearing or reading it (Jn. 20:30,31), while the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces sinners and brings them to Christ. The conjuction of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God penetrating the human soul is sufficient to bring about regeneration, which is a supernatural act of God (Jn. 1:12,13). This is where God deals with blinded eyes, hardened minds, veiled hearts, dead spirits, and lost souls.
The Gospel is a hammer and a fire, it is also the Sword of the Spirit, and it is also the discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, if it is indeed the Word of God (Heb. 4:12, 13). And the Holy Spirit uses the Word of God to bring men to salvation (Jas. 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:23-25). PETER SAYS THAT SINNERS ARE BORN AGAIN WITH THE INCORRUPTIBLE SEED OF THE WORD OF GOD. James and John concur.
So, to answer this question that seems to be plaguing some, men do not "muster up faith". God enables sinners to believe through the preaching of the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit (Rom. 10:8-21). But God does not tells us what He does with those incapable of comprehending the Gospel or being convicted by the Holy Spirit (such as infants).
Rather, the Bible clearly reveals that the Lamb of God took away the sin of the world, therefore there must be just provision for those incapable of responding to the Gospel. What that provision is will be revealed in due time. In the meanwhile, we may rest on God's goodness and grace, not the caricature of the same propagated by some misguided souls.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 6/25/2008 2:35:40 AM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/25/2008 7:01:01 AM
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Machaira
Posts: 174
Joined: 9/2/2006
From: Philadelphia, Pa.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
The conjuction of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God penetrating the human soul is sufficient to bring about regeneration, which is a supernatural act of God (Jn. 1:12,13). This is where God deals with blinded eyes, hardened minds, veiled hearts, dead spirits, and lost souls.
So. . . exactly where do we disagree Ezra? What you have just described is the gracious, unilateral, monergistic work of God in regeneration. You sound like a good Calvinist.
_____________________________
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake . . . Php 1:29
Check out my blog @ www.thomasboston.wordpress.com
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/25/2008 7:43:48 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6715
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Machaira
FreeGrace,
You failed to answer my question.
How does a man muster up faith and turn to the Lord with a hardened mind and a veiled heart, when a hardened mind and a veiled heart would only serve to prevent such a turning in the first place?
My explanation involved Romans 1. When people suppress the truth that God has revealed to mankind about Himself, they are hardened by that. Such people don't "muster up faith", obviously.
What do you think of Cornelius, who, as an unregenerate unbeliever, recognized and honored God through reverence and prayer. He did not suppress the truth. And God answered his prayers by sending Peter with the gospel.
You didn't comment on my comments about Romans 1 and Cornelies. Do you have any?
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/25/2008 7:50:38 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6715
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: Machaira
FreeGrace,
You failed to answer my question.
How does a man muster up faith and turn to the Lord with a hardened mind and a veiled heart, when a hardened mind and a veiled heart would only serve to prevent such a turning in the first place?
Here's another attempt to introduce a red herring (or shall we say set up a straw man) which has no bearing on the subject.
It has been stated numerous times that "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom. 10;17) and that the preaching of the Gospel is essential in order for sinners to be saved. Indeed it is a clear command of Christ (Mk. 16:15,16).
Good point, Ezra! Also, Col 1:6 says "All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God's grace in all its truth."
Clearly, one must hear the gospel, and understand it in order to believe it.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/25/2008 7:58:05 AM
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Machaira
Posts: 174
Joined: 9/2/2006
From: Philadelphia, Pa.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Clearly, one must hear the gospel, and understand it in order to believe it.
You're still avoiding the point. How does one understand the Gospel with a hardened mind and a veiled heart unless God makes the first move, i.e. monergistic regeneration?
_____________________________
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake . . . Php 1:29
Check out my blog @ www.thomasboston.wordpress.com
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/25/2008 8:14:43 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6715
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Machaira
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Clearly, one must hear the gospel, and understand it in order to believe it.
You're still avoiding the point. How does one understand the Gospel with a hardened mind and a veiled heart unless God makes the first move, i.e. monergistic regeneration?
There is no support from Scripture regarding regeneration preceding believing. That is mere speculation and presupposition. Those who have a hardened mind and veiled heart are those who have not paid attention nor listened, or refused to listen, all. those kind don't believe. They are the ones who suppress the truth. They are fools. What do fools do? Check out Psa 14 and 53, v.1-3.
I haven't avoided the point or the question. It is your presumption that all of mankind suppresses the truth and has a hardened mind. That just ain't so.
Cornelius demonstrates one of the unregenerate who recognized God and honored Him, with the result that God answered his prayers by sending Peter with the gospel.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/25/2008 8:59:13 AM
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Machaira
Posts: 174
Joined: 9/2/2006
From: Philadelphia, Pa.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I haven't avoided the point or the question. It is your presumption that all of mankind suppresses the truth and has a hardened mind. That just ain't so.
You seem to have forgotten the context of my question:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Cornelius demonstrates one of the unregenerate who recognized God and honored Him, with the result that God answered his prayers by sending Peter with the gospel.
Romans 1 only demonstrates that man knows God exists through natural revelation and is therefore without excuse. Natural revelation doesn't tell a man that he is in need of salvation as that is the province of special revelation, i.e. the word of God.
"God fearers" like Cornelius and the Jews who rejected Christ would have remained in an unregenerate state had God not initiated contact as salvation is only through Christ, not honoring God. Take note. . . we are not told of the content of Cornelius' prayers so you can prove nothing by reference to them. Like Lydia, hearts need to be opened by God for anyone to accept the Gospel call. Many around the world worship false gods, pray to them, and think they honor God, but they remain unregenerate as well.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
It is your presumption that all of mankind suppresses the truth and has a hardened mind.
Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Now, with 2 Cor.3:14 in mind, let's get back to the topic at hand --
How does one understand the Gospel with a hardened mind and a veiled heart unless God makes the first move, i.e. monergistic regeneration?
How does a man muster up faith and turn to the Lord with a hardened mind and a veiled heart, when a hardened mind and a veiled heart would only serve to prevent such a turning in the first place?
< Message edited by Machaira -- 6/25/2008 9:05:53 AM >
_____________________________
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake . . . Php 1:29
Check out my blog @ www.thomasboston.wordpress.com
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/25/2008 9:01:49 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6715
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Machaira
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I haven't avoided the point or the question. It is your presumption that all of mankind suppresses the truth and has a hardened mind. That just ain't so.
You seem to have forgotten the context of my question:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
No, I haven't forgotten. The phrase "through Christ" indicates when "one turns to the Lord". One cannot be in Christ until one believes. And one cannot turn to the Lord until one believes.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/25/2008 9:04:07 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 780
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Machaira
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Clearly, one must hear the gospel, and understand it in order to believe it.
You're still avoiding the point. How does one understand the Gospel with a hardened mind and a veiled heart unless God makes the first move, i.e. monergistic regeneration?
As Augustine says, `Thou hast formed us for Thyself, and our hearts are restless till they find rest in Thee.'
The human heart is restless, in it's fallen state it has simply perverted what it is restless for. It tries to find peace in the things of the world, but ultimately finds them wanting...at least this was my experience.
Because man in his unregenerate state is unable to understand the things of God, that does not mean that man is beyond the reach of God. Nor does it mean that man has no desire to know God. How else do we explain the myriad of religions and false gods that have been created by the 'unregenerate' over thousands of years? Obviously there is a need that remains within us that has a desire to be fulfilled.
God is always and at all times making the first move. It is not if He is, it is that He is. That first inkling that the unregenerate experience is not understanding, it is the possibility of understanding. It is the 'ah ha' moment, that can begin to soften the heart and open it to understanding of the truth.
With no knowledge of the truth, this restlessness, this void, this vacant temple within us, is subject to the whims of our imaginations. This is why the Gospel is so important. The Gospel is truth, and without hearing the truth, man is left to conjure up his own gods and his own "things" to fill the longing within himself.
How does this affect those whose awareness is compromised? I have not a clue. Nobody does. God has not given us the definitive answer. But He has given us Himself, in the person of Jesus Christ, and knowing Jesus as we do, we know however God deals with these...we know He deals with them perfectly.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/25/2008 9:06:05 AM
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Machaira
Posts: 174
Joined: 9/2/2006
From: Philadelphia, Pa.
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Neither one of you have answered my question.
How does one understand the Gospel with a hardened mind and a veiled heart unless God makes the first move, i.e. monergistic regeneration?
Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
< Message edited by Machaira -- 6/25/2008 9:12:31 AM >
_____________________________
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake . . . Php 1:29
Check out my blog @ www.thomasboston.wordpress.com
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/25/2008 9:17:51 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6715
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Machaira
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Cornelius demonstrates one of the unregenerate who recognized God and honored Him, with the result that God answered his prayers by sending Peter with the gospel.
Romans 1 only demonstrates that man knows God exists through natural revelation and is therefore without excuse. Natural revelation doesn't tell a man that he is in need of salvation as that is the province of special revelation, i.e. the word of God.
I didn't say that God's evidnece tells a man he is in need of salvation. Please pay attention to what I say. God's evidence makes man accountable to recognizing and honoring Him as God, as Rom 1 says. Again, Cornelius demonstrates an unbeliever who did recognize and honor God. The result is that God answered his prayers by sending Peter.
Are you aware of the distinction between those who suppress the truth, as fools do, and Cornelius, who didn't suppress the truth, but responded to that truth? Seems you don't.
quote:
"God fearers" like Cornelius and the Jews who rejected Christ would have remained in an unregenerate state had God not initiated contact as salvation is only through Christ, not honoring God.
Again, you seem not to be paying very close attention here. I never said that honoring God is salvation, or even leads to it. Also, you seem to fail to realize that the mentioning that "God has made it evident to them" IS initial contact by God. Why would you think otherwise? We know from Rom 1 that God has made contact with everyone. And the Bible makes clear that it is up to man to respond to that initial contact. They have no excuse for failing to do so. iow, they are accountable for doing so.
quote:
Take note. . . we are not told of the content of Cornelius' prayers so you can prove nothing by reference to them.
Excuse me, but please take note yourself. Acts 11:14 refers to what Cornelius told Peter about what the angel told him. "And he (Cornelius) reported to us (Peter and crew) how he (Cornelius) had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, 'send to Joppa, and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; and he (Peter) shall speak words to you (the gospel) by which you will be saved, you and all your household'."
The angel TOLD Cornelius that Peter was going to tell him how to be saved. We know from Acts 10 that the angel told Cornelius that his prayers and alms had come up as a memorial before God. Do you think that means something other than that God was going to answer his prayers? If so, what do you think it means?
quote:
Like Lydia, hearts need to be opened by God for anyone to accept the Gospel call. Many around the world worship false gods, pray to them, and think they honor God, but they remain unregenerate as well.
Yep. No disagreement. The difference was that Lydia worshiped the true God, whereas you note the many people who worship false gods, etc. The reason God opened her eyes was because she was seeking Him, and 2 Chron 15:2, Heb 11:6b and Acts 17:27 all indicate that those who seek God will find Him.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/25/2008 9:38:55 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6715
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Machaira
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
It is your presumption that all of mankind suppresses the truth and has a hardened mind.
Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Are you aware of what verses Paul quoting in 3:10, 11? In v.9 he is making the statement that everyone in the human race is under sin, and in 3:23 he re-iterates that same point. In v.10, 11, he is quoting Psa 14 and 53, the first 3 verses. So, v.10 and 11 are about fools, who, from Romans 1:19 and 24, suppress the truth when they say in their hearts, there is no God.
quote:
Now, with 2 Cor.3:14 in mind, let's get back to the topic at hand --
How does one understand the Gospel with a hardened mind and a veiled heart unless God makes the first move, i.e. monergistic regeneration?
When a person suppresses the truth that God has made evident by His "first move", one doesn't even care for understanding the gospel. And your insistence on regeneration preceding understanding and believing the gospel is unfounded in Scripture.
quote:
How does a man muster up faith and turn to the Lord with a hardened mind and a veiled heart, when a hardened mind and a veiled heart would only serve to prevent such a turning in the first place?
One doesn't, as I've repeated said. Their hardened mind and veiled heart are the result of their suppression of the truth, as I've said repeatedly.
Seems you think that God hardened their minds and veiled their hearts to prevent them from understanding. The Bible is clear that people suppress the truth and don't pay attention and refuse to listen, just like a spoiled rotten little kid who does the same with his parents.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/25/2008 12:08:35 PM
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Machaira
Posts: 174
Joined: 9/2/2006
From: Philadelphia, Pa.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The angel TOLD Cornelius that Peter was going to tell him how to be saved.
You're only helping to make my case with this.
In any case, invoking instances of people coming to God doesn't even come close to an answer, because this says nothing about how they managed to break through a hardened mind and a veiled heart which would have prevented them from understanding the call of the Gospel in the first place.
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Paul applys this to the then current situation, so your attempt to diffuse it falls flat.
FreeGrace, you continue to dance around your dilemma and refuse to answer me with a direct answer. My question has been posted many times now so I won't bother to ask again. However, you have managed to make something painfully obvious here -- the complete and utter futility of arminian soteriology, namely, the contradictory notion of synergistic regeneration in particular.
Thanks for the exchange anyway.
_____________________________
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake . . . Php 1:29
Check out my blog @ www.thomasboston.wordpress.com
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/25/2008 5:37:03 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 553
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Bob, I don't mind anyone(s) "ganging up" on me. I'm quite used to it. And I don't consider your questions as trying to. 
FG,
Thanks for taking the "heat." I'm not inclined at this time to be as detailed and vigorous in my defense of free will. Perhaps that will change tomorrow, or not. 
quote:
I am a free will person. I believe God created man with the innate ability to comprehend the gospel and either believe or reject it.
Thanks for the reasonable response. If I did not believe that man has the innate ability to comprehend the gospel, I would not bother ever again to show the Holy Scriptures to those who are not yet regenerated. But, we are to be ambassadors for Christ, just as Phillip was with the eunuch. I've reasoned with many people from the Holy Scriptures over the years, and am always comforted by the fact that unregenerated people have the ability to understand that their sinful condition sets them apart from God. And this understanding has then led into a discussion of their need to be reconciled to God, their Creator. The Word of God preached to the unregenerate heart is able to work in that hard heart.
quote:
Though many consider "spiritually dead" to mean unable to hear, respond or understand the gospel, the generally understood meaning of physically dead is the separation of soul and body, which no one denies. To even consider "lack of function" as the meaning of "spiritually dead" is disproven by Adam, who, as a newly unregenerate man, and spiritually dead, responded to our Lord in the Garden.
I understand then, FG, that you do not subscribe to the teaching on Total Depravity? If not, then how do you understand the human condition? Also, are you referring to Adam's condition after he sinned here?
quote:
quote:
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Joh 6:37
From this verse I see a clear promise of eternal security. Whosoever comes to Jesus will never be cast out. Amen. I also see that the Father gives all believers to Jesus.
FG, this is, as you might well know, where I would have to "jump ship" from you. I'm not OSAS, but that is for another thread. 
quote:
Cornelius is an example of an unbeliever who didn't suppress the truth; rather, he recognized and honored God (God fearing and continual prayer). The result of his "seeking God" was that he found Him, just as promised in 2 Chron 15:2, Heb 11:6b and Acts 17:27.
I've been very encouraged by your reference to Cornelius here. It reminds me exactly of my experience in coming to Christ. Except in my case, I wasn't even sure that God existed. I just wanted to believe that He did. And so I prayed, to what I thought might very well be only empty space. My prayer over several months went something like this. "God, I don't know if You can hear me. I don't even know if you exist. But if you can hear me, if you exist, please show me. Please let me know. I need to know if you can hear me. I need to know if You exist."
After praying this way for several months, the Lord sent a Christian man my way. The first question he asked me when he approached me was, "Do you believe in Jesus?" And as they say, the rest is history. 
Heavendweller
_____________________________
See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. I John 3:1
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/26/2008 3:27:45 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3758
Joined: 4/15/2005
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Cornelius is an example of an unbeliever who didn't suppress the truth; rather, he recognized and honored God (God fearing and continual prayer).
Cornelius was a believer... If not the following would have applied...
Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.
Proverbs 15:29 The Lord is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.
Acts 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Acts 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
It's seems pretty clear Cornelius was not acting out of the flesh... Verse 2 isn't man prior to salvation...
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Was there some other method other than the Holy Spirit in which Cornelius prayed?
John
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/26/2008 4:56:16 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3754
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Cornelius is an example of an unbeliever who didn't suppress the truth; rather, he recognized and honored God (God fearing and continual prayer).
Cornelius was a believer... If not the following would have applied...
Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.
Proverbs 15:29 The Lord is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous. That can only be assumed if you don't think he became regenerated when the Holy Spirit fell on him in Acts 10:44. Do you? Without those last few verses I would come to the same conclusion - that he was regenerated already in verse 1. But, because those verses are there, I think his actions were the drawing of the Father - not regeneration.
quote:
Acts 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Acts 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
I don't think these verses offer any clues as to whether Cornelius was saved at this point. Afterall, many unsaved Jews were devout, prayed and did good works.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/26/2008 10:21:53 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1775
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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quote:
That can only be assumed if you don't think he became regenerated when the Holy Spirit fell on him in Acts 10:44. Do you? Without those last few verses I would come to the same conclusion - that he was regenerated already in verse 1. But, because those verses are there, I think his actions were the drawing of the Father - not regeneration.
God draws men and lifts the veil of unbelief…they still have to be exposed as to what to belief. Just because election is true does not preclude the fact that we still have to carry the gospel to them. Man might be looking for a God but until they understand who Jesus Christ is…they sure are not looking for Him. The differences is that man might see God but until they have the faith to believe that Christ is God they are lost.
Paul understood God but he was blinded to Christ until Christ opened the way so he could believe.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/26/2008 11:42:34 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1052
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Cornelius is an example of an unbeliever who didn't suppress the truth; rather, he recognized and honored God (God fearing and continual prayer).
Cornelius was a believer... If not the following would have applied...
Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.
Proverbs 15:29 The Lord is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous. That can only be assumed if you don't think he became regenerated when the Holy Spirit fell on him in Acts 10:44. Do you? Without those last few verses I would come to the same conclusion - that he was regenerated already in verse 1. But, because those verses are there, I think his actions were the drawing of the Father - not regeneration.
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Acts 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Acts 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
I don't think these verses offer any clues as to whether Cornelius was saved at this point. Afterall, many unsaved Jews were devout, prayed and did good works.
I agree.  What a shocker!!
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/26/2008 4:49:42 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3758
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: kelman
That can only be assumed if you don't think he became regenerated when the Holy Spirit fell on him in Acts 10:44. Do you? Without those last few verses I would come to the same conclusion - that he was regenerated already in verse 1. But, because those verses are there, I think his actions were the drawing of the Father - not regeneration.
Of course your view has the flesh pleasing God, the sacrifice of the wicked is NOT an abomination to the Lord and the Lord is NOT far from the wicked... IF Cornelius was not saved...
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I don't think these verses offer any clues as to whether Cornelius was saved at this point.
I doubt half the folks on the fourm would measure up to the above....
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Afterall, many unsaved Jews were devout, prayed and did good works.
The "good" works of the unsaved are not "good" in the eyes of God when He says even the their tender mercies are evil...
Regarding prayer... How... If not by the Holy Spirit, how?
John
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/26/2008 9:55:16 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 553
Joined: 12/22/2007
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Regarding prayer... How... If not by the Holy Spirit, how?
John
Dear John,
I can tell you that in my case, I poured out my heart to God, not knowing for sure if He existed, but hoping He did. And begging Him to reveal Himself to me. And this was before I was regenerated, prior to having the Holy Spirit. But I sure was praying with all my might. Now you can believe me or not.
I've known several people who called out to God before they were Christians. Not everything can be explained down to the last jot and tittle. Some things are....mysteries.
Heavendweller
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See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. I John 3:1
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/26/2008 10:18:44 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6715
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Machaira
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The angel TOLD Cornelius that Peter was going to tell him how to be saved.
You're only helping to make my case with this.
In any case, invoking instances of people coming to God doesn't even come close to an answer, because this says nothing about how they managed to break through a hardened mind and a veiled heart which would have prevented them from understanding the call of the Gospel in the first place.
Why do you think that Cornelius even had a veiled heart and hardened mind? Didn't you read how the Bible described him? He was "God fearing (reverence) and prayed continually. And, whether you want to admit it or not, the angel did tell him that God had answered his prayers.
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Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Paul applys this to the then current situation, so your attempt to diffuse it falls flat.
Not at all. Did you miss the fact that Rom 3:11 comes directly from Psa 14 and 53, which is about fools who say in their heart there is no God? Those are the ones, according to Romans 1, who suppress the truth of what God has made evident to everyone?
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FreeGrace, you continue to dance around your dilemma and refuse to answer me with a direct answer. My question has been posted many times now so I won't bother to ask again. However, you have managed to make something painfully obvious here -- the complete and utter futility of arminian soteriology, namely, the contradictory notion of synergistic regeneration in particular.
I have no idea of what you are saying here. Too bad you didn't repeat what ever question you may have asked. However, I am not arminian in the least, and your "claim" that I support synergistic regeneration is silly: I have maintained that only God is the One who regenerates. Man has no part in it. Is that clear to you? Too bad you won't repeat your question that you think I've not answered.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/26/2008 10:24:52 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3758
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Regarding prayer... How... If not by the Holy Spirit, how?
John
Dear John,
I can tell you that in my case, I poured out my heart to God, not knowing for sure if He existed, but hoping He did. And begging Him to reveal Himself to me. And this was before I was regenerated, prior to having the Holy Spirit. But I sure was praying with all my might. Now you can believe me or not.
I've known several people who called out to God before they were Christians. Not everything can be explained down to the last jot and tittle. Some things are....mysteries.
Heavendweller
The word of God trumps personal accounts...
John
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/26/2008 10:33:21 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6715
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Though many consider "spiritually dead" to mean unable to hear, respond or understand the gospel, the generally understood meaning of physically dead is the separation of soul and body, which no one denies. To even consider "lack of function" as the meaning of "spiritually dead" is disproven by Adam, who, as a newly unregenerate man, and spiritually dead, responded to our Lord in the Garden.
I understand then, FG, that you do not subscribe to the teaching on Total Depravity? If not, then how do you understand the human condition?
My understanding of man's total depravity is that man is completely unable to save himself. Zero. And I appreciated your comments on the fact that unregenerate men can comprehend the gospel, which, according to reformed theology, man cannot do until they are regenerated.
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Also, are you referring to Adam's condition after he sinned here?
Yes. He was "newly unregenerate" when he responded to the Lord in the Garden. He did understand what the Lord said and he responded to the Lord's comments.
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All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Joh 6:37
From this verse I see a clear promise of eternal security. Whosoever comes to Jesus will never be cast out. Amen. I also see that the Father gives all believers to Jesus.
FG, this is, as you might well know, where I would have to "jump ship" from you. I'm not OSAS, but that is for another thread.
Sorry to lose your presence "on board". | | |
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