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RE: "G-d" - 6/18/2008 2:15:07 PM
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JimboFletch
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I prefer to address Him as Jesus did and as Paul says is evidence that we have received the Spirit of adoption, "Abba, Father."
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RE: "G-d" - 6/25/2008 8:40:24 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
I even know that the 'J' is a bad phonetic transliteration; You also know that "w" is just as bad a phonetic trasliteration?
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RE: "G-d" - 6/25/2008 11:02:57 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
I even know that the 'J' is a bad phonetic transliteration; You also know that "w" is just as bad a phonetic transliteration?
Actually the 'W' is a reasonable phonetic translation of the biblical pronunciation of 'vav'; although it was pronounced a little closer to the German 'w' in biblical times i.e. a little closer to a 'V' than the English 'W'. In modern Hebrew it is pronounced and transliterated as a 'V'. Almost all Hebrew grammars that cover biblical Hebrew will reference this change of pronunciation. The way ancient pronunciations are reconstructed is by looking at ancient transliterations of Hebrew words (primarily names) into other languages, and seeing which phonetic sounds they chose to represent the sounds of the original. BTW - for biblical Hebrew 'vav' is always transliterated as 'W' in scholarly works, it is the recognized standard transliteration.
A similar transition is evident in the soft pronunciation of the 'Tah'; during biblical times it was pronounced as 'th' as we see in the transliterated 'beith lechem' (Bethlehem), in the Modern Sephardic pronunciation it is 'beit lecham'; and in the European Ashkenazi pronunciation it is 'Beis Lechem'; however, the hard pronuciation of 'tah' it the same in all three dialects i.e. 't'
< Message edited by benelchi -- 6/25/2008 11:19:52 AM >
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RE: "G-d" - 6/25/2008 12:06:03 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
BTW - for biblical Hebrew 'vav' is always transliterated as 'W' in scholarly works, it is the recognized standard transliteration. WHOSE scholarly works? Orthodox Jewish scholarly works? I think not. The transliteration scheme in common usage in Christian seminaries was made up based on faulty research. Fortunately this is in the process of change. Since the linguists have had a chance to study Yeminite pronounciations, which are almost unchanged since the 2nd century, they have dropped the idea that vav had a "w" sound or that the soft tav originally had a "th" sound. That came in from contact with the Greeks.
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
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RE: "G-d" - 6/25/2008 12:15:26 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
BTW - for biblical Hebrew 'vav' is always transliterated as 'W' in scholarly works, it is the recognized standard transliteration. WHOSE scholarly works? Orthodox Jewish scholarly works? I think not. The transliteration scheme in common usage in Christian seminaries was made up based on faulty research. Fortunately this is in the process of change. Since the linguists have had a chance to study Yeminite pronounciations, which are almost unchanged since the 2nd century, they have dropped the idea that vav had a "w" sound or that the soft tav originally had a "th" sound. That came in from contact with the Greeks.
First, this is simply untrue. The pronunciation was not made up in Christian seminaries. This transliteration has been used and is still used today by Jewish Hebrew scholars who reject Christianity; Emanuel Tov would be one such scholar. Second, the Yeminite pronunciation is not unchanged since the second century. Can you provide any references from any scholar (Jewish or Christian) at any major university that would substantiate any of these claims?
< Message edited by benelchi -- 6/25/2008 12:22:05 PM >
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RE: "G-d" - 6/26/2008 6:39:06 AM
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DaveW
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I am not a linguist. I had 2 housemates in college who were. (one is now a PHD in linguistics) I am passing on what they learned and told me.
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
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RE: "G-d" - 6/26/2008 9:05:41 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
I am not a linguist. I had 2 housemates in college who were. (one is now a PHD in linguistics) I am passing on what they learned and told me.
In College, I studied Hebrew for 5 years (including one year of graduate studies). Over the years I have continued my studies, and still on occasion attend guest speaker lectures hosted by the Jewish studies program at Standford each year. I have no idea about who your house mates were, nor do I know anything about their field of expertise, but I do know the names of recognized experts in the field of Ancient Near Eastern linguistic studies who would disagree with their conclusions; I have even met a couple through the lecture series at Standford.
What I do know from experience; many scholarly works contain transliterations and those transliterations have a 1 to 1 relationship with the Hebrew letters so that the original can be accurately reconstructed from the transliteration. These transliterations include things like 'h' for 'hey', 'h' with a dot underneath for a 'het', forward and backward apostrophes for 'aleph' and 'ayin', and always 'w' for 'vav'. Where non technical transliterations often leave you guessing about what the spelling of the underlying text might have been, technical transliterations do not, but are often not intuitively pronounced by a native English speaker.
Also something I know from experience: Because there were no recording devices in ancient times, all ancient pronunciations are reconstructed by looking at transliterations of ancient words from one language into another (usually place or people names). These transliterations often exist in many of the languages of the surrounding cultures i.e. Greek, Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, etc... By comparing literature from the differing cultures at different time periods, changes in vocalization can be recognized by changes in the transliterations used.
Based on the information I have, all of the ancient Yemenite documents we have come from the period centuries after the Diaspora and so would have little value in the reconstruction of biblical Hebrew. Even if your friends were right, and we did have 2nd century documents to use for such a comparison, we would still have to realize that this is a comparison of a language a century after people speaking that language were uprooted from their homeland and fled in every possible direction to new countries and cultures because of the Roman persecution. Given the circumstances a change in dialect would be the expected norm, to remain unchanged through such chaotic cultural changes would be unique in History. As a comparison, look at the development of dialects in American English during the first 100 years i.e. the accents of "New York", "Chicago", "The deep south", etc..., and the complete loss of the "British" accent.
< Message edited by benelchi -- 6/26/2008 9:20:20 AM >
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