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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/24/2008 1:58:15 PM
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jazzact13
Posts: 547
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quote:
If anyone dies unsaved, we as believers are shamed for it because we failed to reach that person or show the truth of salvation in our lives and conduct. We failed to shine before the world and be the city on the hill. True,there are those who will not believe no matter what, but we are still obligated to be Christ for them in the hope that they will someday see.
Trying to keep in mind what you said to others after making this statement, Pale, it does still raise questions in my mind.
For example, would you say such things to Jesus in regards to those like the Pharisees who did not believe in Him? Was Jesus shamed that He was essentailly rejected by His whole nation?
To look at the failings and failures of any Christian as an excuse to reject Christ is just that, an excuse. And probably a very weak one, too.
As the Bible says, Jesus "came to his own, and his own did not receive him". And as He said later, "If they have hated me, they will hate you because you love me". We cannot make the decision for any other person, and if the Son of God Himself could walk among men and suffer rejection, what can we rightfully expect.
_____________________________
there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/24/2008 3:01:53 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
Posts: 307
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As far as I know, Jesus lived His life perfectly in obedience to God and did not sin in any way. When He was rejected by others, it was not due to being a failed example.
We human beings, however, are not and probably never will be perfect examples because we DO sin. It is that which the world sees and so often bases its interpretation of Christianity and Christians upon. And weall know the world will not focus upon the good things any of us as individuals or as a whole does, like building schools and houses or putting in wells in other places where these things are not available to folks. Nor will it look at prison ministries which serve those on the insideand help them once they get out. It doesn't notice the neighbor who brings a bag of groceries to another neighbor who is struggling.
But it will notice when only a few christians are involved in said beneficent ministries. It will notice the christian who engages in road rage or who commits adultery. It will notice the christian who is consumed by financial gain or excessive worries over difficultiesin life. It will notice ministry leaders who get caught doing the same stuff other leaders do as a matter of regular business. Whenever any one of us fail to live up to the standards we profess to live by, that is how we are all judged.
And I am not absolving those who die unsaved of their responsibility. If the Gospel has been made available to them and they do not even take a look at it, then the coals are on their own heads. However, getting someone to take a look can often be influenced by the actions of christians, and if the walk doesn't match the talk then the unsaved may very well reject the Gospel based upon that bad witness. And let us not forget that there have been times when christians, following social doctines of a given era such as in the Victorian Era, have been rude, arrogant, self-righteous, oppressive of the poor, the widowed and orphaned, the stranger and the conquered, and have made the name of Jesus Christ a curse in the mouths of those they mistreated because the Church used His Name as justification for what was done. Genocidal pograms against the Jews for being "Christ-killers" is a prime example. Using the Bible as support for slavery and the often brutal repression of blacks in this country is another. The US Indian Policies as formatted by George Washington, James Madison, and Andrew Jackson during their respective political and both Washington's and Jackson's military careers, used "Divine Provenance" as the reason that American Indians were deemed unfit to exist and thus destined for annihilation. The Christian Doctrine of Discovery, which labeled people who were not Christian as being non-humans to be dispossessed, enslaved, exploited, abused, and exterminated is yet another. And these sinful things were supported by church congregants as properly righteous, christian things to do. Past wrongs are more easily remembered, and those who suffered pass those memories on.
There have been people in this forum who have suffered at the hands of their churches and other christians, and there have been some very clearly unChrist-like exchanges in past and present exchanges here on the forums. Non-believers see this behavior and use it as an excuse to justiy their rejection of the Gospel, or if they are searching, see it and decide they want no part of such mean-spiritedness and then they go look elsewhere. When our behavior, either as individuals or corporately as the Body of Christ, causes others to stumble and fall or turns them away then we are indeed culpable before the Lord.
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/24/2008 5:21:51 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5842
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quote:
There have been people in this forum who have suffered at the hands of their churches and other christians, and there have been some very clearly unChrist-like exchanges in past and present exchanges here on the forums. Non-believers see this behavior and use it as an excuse to justiy their rejection of the Gospel, or if they are searching, see it and decide they want no part of such mean-spiritedness and then they go look elsewhere.
It amazes me that people would reject Christianity because of fakes and hypocrites without regard to the real deal. Invariably, they will call it unchristian behavior. Well, DUH! Sounds more like an excuse than a reason to reject the One they know to to be real and, by their own admission, know what a real Christian is like.
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/24/2008 5:36:55 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2025
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: uncabeeil
Carlin was raised in an Irish Catholic home, hence the line from his Class Clown album "I used to Irish Catholic, now I'm an American. You know, you grow." So I'd say yes, he had a very good idea of what he was rejecting.
 Mother Teresa was Catholic. I guess she didn't know what she was embracing!
< Message edited by mapachito13 -- 6/24/2008 5:45:00 PM >
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/24/2008 6:18:20 PM
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Blackhawkk
Posts: 22
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From OUR perspective, Carlin rejected Jesus and Christianity. Who knows what happened in his last moments of his life? A quick conversion? We'll never know but we do know you can judge a person by their fruits.
Carlin, to the Christian church, was very hostile. Defending him is like spitting on your family. Maybe he had a last-minute conversion but from his actions he hated us and obviously we should have loved him. But that doesn't mean defending his hatred and putting down your Christian family.
The praise I hear the world giving him sickens me. They hate what is good and love what is evil.
_____________________________
"Tolerance Is A Virtue Of A Man Without Convictions." G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/24/2008 7:52:08 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 544
Joined: 7/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Blackhawkk
Carlin, to the Christian church, was very hostile. Defending him is like spitting on your family. Maybe he had a last-minute conversion but from his actions he hated us and obviously we should have loved him. But that doesn't mean defending his hatred and putting down your Christian family.
I am not sure that anyone here is defending the things that he said about Christianity. However, we are called to love him, regardless of what he said.
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/25/2008 10:31:19 AM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 769
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Blackhawkk
From OUR perspective, Carlin rejected Jesus and Christianity. Who knows what happened in his last moments of his life? A quick conversion? We'll never know but we do know you can judge a person by their fruits.
Carlin, to the Christian church, was very hostile. Defending him is like spitting on your family. Maybe he had a last-minute conversion but from his actions he hated us and obviously we should have loved him. But that doesn't mean defending his hatred and putting down your Christian family.
The praise I hear the world giving him sickens me. They hate what is good and love what is evil.
And people on here saying that he's probably/is burning in Hell sickens me. NOBODY in this world is capable of judging him, except the Lord, and as Christians, we should respect that. Its God's duty, and God's alone, to determine who does and does not go to Hell because He alone knows what REALLY is in a person's heart.
Yes, George Carlin said some very contraversial things about Christianity... and other religions. If you were offended by them, I don't blame you one bit. Though one does have to admit, Carlin did point out a number of hypocrasies about many things in our culture... including with religion, politics, patriotism, pop culture, entertainment, etc.
Yes, he definitely could've done it a different way. He definitely didn't need to take some of the blattent cheapshots that he did. But he did open people's eyes to many things, and he did make us laugh in the process. I will miss him and his candor (which is a rare thing to find in the world, now days).
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/25/2008 11:04:56 AM
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HisFish
Posts: 539
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: Blackhawkk
From OUR perspective, Carlin rejected Jesus and Christianity. Who knows what happened in his last moments of his life? A quick conversion? We'll never know but we do know you can judge a person by their fruits.
Carlin, to the Christian church, was very hostile. Defending him is like spitting on your family. Maybe he had a last-minute conversion but from his actions he hated us and obviously we should have loved him. But that doesn't mean defending his hatred and putting down your Christian family.
The praise I hear the world giving him sickens me. They hate what is good and love what is evil.
And people on here saying that he's probably/is burning in Hell sickens me. NOBODY in this world is capable of judging him, except the Lord, and as Christians, we should respect that. Its God's duty, and God's alone, to determine who does and does not go to Hell because He alone knows what REALLY is in a person's heart.
Yes, George Carlin said some very contraversial things about Christianity... and other religions. If you were offended by them, I don't blame you one bit. Though one does have to admit, Carlin did point out a number of hypocrasies about many things in our culture... including with religion, politics, patriotism, pop culture, entertainment, etc.
Yes, he definitely could've done it a different way. He definitely didn't need to take some of the blattent cheapshots that he did. But he did open people's eyes to many things, and he did make us laugh in the process. I will miss him and his candor (which is a rare thing to find in the world, now days).
Hmm, the candor you prized that old reprobate for, you despise in us. Which is it, do you like candor or not?. All the glowing praise heaped upon this mocker of God sickens me. I wont mark his passing with sackcloth and ashes, you are more than within your rights to do so.
Proverbs 14:7 KJV "Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge."
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/25/2008 12:32:31 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2025
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: Blackhawkk
From OUR perspective, Carlin rejected Jesus and Christianity. Who knows what happened in his last moments of his life? A quick conversion? We'll never know but we do know you can judge a person by their fruits.
Carlin, to the Christian church, was very hostile. Defending him is like spitting on your family. Maybe he had a last-minute conversion but from his actions he hated us and obviously we should have loved him. But that doesn't mean defending his hatred and putting down your Christian family.
The praise I hear the world giving him sickens me. They hate what is good and love what is evil.
And people on here saying that he's probably/is burning in Hell sickens me. NOBODY in this world is capable of judging him, except the Lord, and as Christians, we should respect that. Its God's duty, and God's alone, to determine who does and does not go to Hell because He alone knows what REALLY is in a person's heart.
Yes, George Carlin said some very contraversial things about Christianity... and other religions. If you were offended by them, I don't blame you one bit. Though one does have to admit, Carlin did point out a number of hypocrasies about many things in our culture... including with religion, politics, patriotism, pop culture, entertainment, etc.
Yes, he definitely could've done it a different way. He definitely didn't need to take some of the blattent cheapshots that he did. But he did open people's eyes to many things, and he did make us laugh in the process. I will miss him and his candor (which is a rare thing to find in the world, now days).
Hmm, the candor you prized that old reprobate for, you despise in us. Which is it, do you like candor or not?. All the glowing praise heaped upon this mocker of God sickens me. I wont mark his passing with sackcloth and ashes, you are more than within your rights to do so.
Proverbs 14:7 KJV "Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge."
Jesus' own words:
"But I say to you, love your enemy, PRAY FOR THOSE WHO PERSECUTE YOU, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for He makes His sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have?" Matthew 5:44 (Emphasis added)
You don't have to listen to him speaking falsehood but that doesn't mean we should relish an eternity in hell for the man! As Christians, we can disregard the message as we love the messenger.
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/25/2008 2:25:46 PM
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Blackhawkk
Posts: 22
Joined: 1/31/2008
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Is anybody here relishing that he's spending eternity in hell?
By his actions and his words, Carlin seems to ba a candidate for hell but I don't think we Christians are rubbing our hands together in glee. We're just responding to the praise that the world is giving this man who certainly doesn't deserve it.
_____________________________
"Tolerance Is A Virtue Of A Man Without Convictions." G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/25/2008 2:31:21 PM
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uncabeeil
Posts: 5639
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Joisey. Got a problem wit dat?
Status: offline
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quote:
Is anybody here relishing that he's spending eternity in hell?
It's nice that you have direct knowledge of how God judged him. How do you do that? Do you assume he is spending eternity in hell? Because you know what happens when you assume, doncha? You're new here, so let me give you a piece of advice, never make a declaration about anybody's salvation without the facts to back it up.
_____________________________
Sniglet of the day: Waftic (wahf' tik) - adj. Describes any person in whose direction campfire or barbecue smoke always blows.
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/25/2008 2:38:43 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5842
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: uncabeeil
quote:
Is anybody here relishing that he's spending eternity in hell?
It's nice that you have direct knowledge of how God judged him. How do you do that? Do you assume he is spending eternity in hell? Because you know what happens when you assume, doncha? You're new here, so let me give you a piece of advice, never make a declaration about anybody's salvation without the facts to back it up.
Actually, the test in scripture is in the positive: We know by their fruit. He had none. Not in word or deed, certainly not in proclaiming Christ to the lost. Zero Fruit.
BTW, I ain't new around here and his lack of any fruit is enough fact for me.
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/25/2008 4:53:50 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 539
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: uncabeeil
quote:
Is anybody here relishing that he's spending eternity in hell?
It's nice that you have direct knowledge of how God judged him. How do you do that? Do you assume he is spending eternity in hell? Because you know what happens when you assume, doncha? You're new here, so let me give you a piece of advice, never make a declaration about anybody's salvation without the facts to back it up.
Actually, the test in scripture is in the positive: We know by their fruit. He had none. Not in word or deed, certainly not in proclaiming Christ to the lost. Zero Fruit.
BTW, I ain't new around here and his lack of any fruit is enough fact for me.
Well put Jimbo.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/25/2008 10:11:42 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3425
Joined: 4/11/2005
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George did not believe in god, because he did not want to. We have free will, and the Holy Spirit woos us. There are many good Christians, and who knows who tried to reach him. No I would not watch his filth. I am sorry though if he made the choice not to accept Jesus christ. The most important choice one can make. I do not rejoice when someone unsaved died. My hope is that, a last minute salvation occured.
quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
If George Carlin did not believe in God, why not? Was there anyone who showed Him Christ in their relationship to him? Was there anyone whose life exemplified Jesus Christ in thought, word, and deed? More than likely there were plenty around him who called themselves christian but whose walk was way off their talk. If anyone dies unsaved, we as believers are shamed for it because we failed to reach that person or show the truth of salvation in our lives and conduct. We failed to shine before the world and be the city on the hill. True,there are those who will not believe no matter what, but we are still obligated to be Christ for them in the hope that they will someday see.
Whether or not he believed in God, he was still a human being and had
some very valid observations over the years. My favorite was a more recent one, where he bemoaned how we have all the material wealth under the sun but are spiritually and emotionally the poorer for it.
Satire and parody make fun of things which quite often deserve to be made fun of, and that includes religion. Pure faith is a very rare and beautiful thing, but religion tends to be not very pure at all and has at times been used by demogogues and opportunists to ensnare, enslave, cripple, abuse, and kill people. Religion has been and is still being used as "justification" for oppression, murder, and genocide. Christianity does not have clean hands in this regard, and at times in the past has rolled whole-heartedly in the muck of human suffering caused by church doctrines(those fomented by the avarice and prejudices of man in defiance of the Word of God).
We all know someone who is christian or claims to be, who uses "christian concern" as an excuse to gossip about others and commit character assassination. We know of church members who cheat on their income taxes, or who separate their business practices from their spiritual life. There are those alive today who remember that many of the churches of Europe stood by as Jews and Gypsies were rounded up and slaughtered by the Nazis, Facists, and Communists in the 1930's and 1940's, and the churches in America voiced little if any protest. Christians in this country allowed our government to turn away a boat of Jewish refugees who then had to return to Europe and were summarily sent to the death camps; had the church as a whole raised cain, those refugees would have been accepted.
There were whites kicked out of their own churches for supporting the Civil Rights movement or for being conscientious objectors to institutionalized oppression, violence and wars. In the 1820's and '30's, 17 pastors were imprisoned by the State of Georgia for objecting to the Indian Exclusion Acts stripping Indians of any rights of due process or self defense, and for objecting to the Removal Act. Several of these pastors were defrocked by their denominations and 3 pastors were lynched by mobs which included members of their own congregations. Pastors and other christians who spoke out against governmental abuses of civilians in the first 2/3 of the 20th century(and even to this day) or who supported the Labor Movements and Child Labor laws were labeled enemies of America by the the government and subjected to blackballing and other forms of harassment and coersion. On many occasions, more so in the first half of the 20th century than recently, the church stood back and invoked neutrality and thus did nothing to support their fellow christians.
We need to listen carefully to others when they speak, even if we find it distasteful, see what truth there be in it, and try to reach them even if that truth be one tiny kernel. We also need to examine those kernels to see where we need to stand up and speak out, or at least examine our own selves to better serve the Lord by serving our fellow man. We are His Body, are we not? His Hands to reach out, His Arms to embrace and uphold, His Mouth to speak words of truth and love and comfort to those in need and to confront wrongdoing, His Shoulders to bear the burdens of our fellow human beings, His back to receive the lashes for the oppressed, His legs to stand firm, His Eyes to see and Ears to hear so that we see and hear others and know what is going on, His Face so that the world might see Him.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/26/2008 8:55:07 AM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 769
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: Blackhawkk
From OUR perspective, Carlin rejected Jesus and Christianity. Who knows what happened in his last moments of his life? A quick conversion? We'll never know but we do know you can judge a person by their fruits.
Carlin, to the Christian church, was very hostile. Defending him is like spitting on your family. Maybe he had a last-minute conversion but from his actions he hated us and obviously we should have loved him. But that doesn't mean defending his hatred and putting down your Christian family.
The praise I hear the world giving him sickens me. They hate what is good and love what is evil.
And people on here saying that he's probably/is burning in Hell sickens me. NOBODY in this world is capable of judging him, except the Lord, and as Christians, we should respect that. Its God's duty, and God's alone, to determine who does and does not go to Hell because He alone knows what REALLY is in a person's heart.
Yes, George Carlin said some very contraversial things about Christianity... and other religions. If you were offended by them, I don't blame you one bit. Though one does have to admit, Carlin did point out a number of hypocrasies about many things in our culture... including with religion, politics, patriotism, pop culture, entertainment, etc.
Yes, he definitely could've done it a different way. He definitely didn't need to take some of the blattent cheapshots that he did. But he did open people's eyes to many things, and he did make us laugh in the process. I will miss him and his candor (which is a rare thing to find in the world, now days).
Hmm, the candor you prized that old reprobate for, you despise in us. Which is it, do you like candor or not?. All the glowing praise heaped upon this mocker of God sickens me. I wont mark his passing with sackcloth and ashes, you are more than within your rights to do so.
Proverbs 14:7 KJV "Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge."
Really? I said that I despised that in you? I said that we shouldn't be passing judgement on him. None of us know how God will judge people, and none of us are capable of passing that judgement onto our brothers and sisters. Care to show me otherwise instead of shoving words in my mouth? Maybe you should read your own little Proverbs verse. It actually applies to you far more than it does me.
”Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measurement ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote (speck) that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and them shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.” Matthew 7:1-5
< Message edited by TorchHeart -- 6/26/2008 9:04:57 AM >
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/26/2008 9:42:03 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5842
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
”Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measurement ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote (speck) that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and them shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.” Matthew 7:1-5
Okay, so you quoted some scripture that seems to fit your premise, but do you understand it? Let's look down just a few more verses in the same chapter you quoted:
15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Care to comment on those and explain how it connects with the ones you quoted and why it doesn't reflect on old George?
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/26/2008 11:41:12 AM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 769
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
”Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measurement ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote (speck) that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and them shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.” Matthew 7:1-5
Okay, so you quoted some scripture that seems to fit your premise, but do you understand it? Let's look down just a few more verses in the same chapter you quoted:
15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Care to comment on those and explain how it connects with the ones you quoted and why it doesn't reflect on old George?
First of all, the Scripture I quoted wasn't directed at people like Carlin; its far more directed at the hypocrites in this forum and other areas of Christianity who seem to think that, just because they read a Bible every now and then or preach at some pulpit, they're somehow superior to the rest of mankind, and thus have the right to condem Carlin, Obama, Bush, or anyone else they disagree with and claim they're going to be burning in Hell. In short, he's speaking to all of us... those of us who claim to already be Christians.
Jesus is telling us in the Scripture I quoted that we are not capable of being able to judge whether or not someone is going to Hell. We aren't capable of determining that, because we are all guilty of sin. Everyone of us has a log in their eye in comparison with the speck in someone elses. And while Jesus tells us to cast the beam out of our own eye, that never really happens, does it? Because people continually fall back into one sin or another. The best we can hope for is to try and HELP one another over-come sin, rather than condem one person for something when we ourselves are guilty of sins ourselves.
As for your little tidbit of Scripture, Christ is again speaking to and of these same hypocrites... the ones who claim to know God, but actually don't. He's telling us how His followers can determine whether or not they should follow the instructions of these individuals, and they will know by their actions and works.
NOTE THOUGH, that he isn't giving us the go-ahead to declaire that these people are going to Hell. Nor is he condeming them all to Hell.
When Jesus says that:
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
you will note that it is the LORD who says "Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness." Its not other Christians who do this, but the Lord himself.
Though Jesus is telling us how to watch out for false prophets in our own midst, he's also telling us that we're not allowed to judge them because we ourselves are just as capable as they are of sinning and leading others into sin. God, and God alone, who will judge which of us is actually doing His will, and knows what is in each man's heart.
How do these not apply to Carlin? Carlin never claimed to come in Christ, or even that he should be taken seriously. He was a stand-up comic for Pete's sake, and I'm sure that God can determine what to take from Carlin as seriously or not.... but of course, that's God who can determine that, and God alone. I'm not saying that Carlin isn't going to be judged for what came from his mouth (obviously someone here is going to tell me how what comes from a man's mouth is indicative of what comes from his heart, but when you're playing a part on stage, how does that apply?... again, let's let the One who knows be the judge, like he's supposed to be). I'm also not saying that he won't be judged by his personal beliefs.
I am going to say that we aren't the ones who are supposed to be calling judgement on him and declairing that he's burning in Hell, and God is clearly stating this in His message to us through Christ.
I'm sure I'm also going to get someone on here who will say "God has to be speaking to everybody, because everybody is called upon to be Messengers of God," but I'll let that be.
I suppose I should end with the fact that the entire context of the Bible is completely open to many different INTERPRETATIONS regarding their meanings, each of which can be considered just as correct as the next. What you have read above is mine of the verses you and I have cited.
< Message edited by TorchHeart -- 6/26/2008 12:04:49 PM >
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/26/2008 11:53:26 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5842
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
First of all, the Scripture I quoted wasn't directed at people like Carlin; its far more directed at the hypocrites in this forum and other areas of Christianity who seem to think that, just because they read a Bible every now and then or preach at some pulpit, they're somehow superior to the rest of mankind, and thus have the right to condem Carlin, Obama, Bush, or anyone else they disagree with and claim they're going to be burning in Hell. In short, he's speaking to all of us... those of us who claim to already be Christians.
So you can judge hypocrites (spell that, "they disagree with you") but nobody else on the forum has you level of sophistication. Interesting to meet yet another someone above the rest of the forum and come to entertain enlighten the rest of us poor smucks.
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Jesus is telling us in the Scripture I quoted that we are not capable of being able to judge whether or not someone is going to Hell....
Typical unlearned, politically-correct spin on the passage. The world adores such bad interpretation.
Did you have a similar opinion of Saddam Hussein when he was executed? What about David Koresh and Jim Jones when they died? Is Charles Manson just a misunderstood Christian wrongly sentenced to prison?
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/26/2008 11:59:17 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 544
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Did you have a similar opinion of Saddam Hussein when he was executed? What about David Koresh and Jim Jones when they died? Is Charles Manson just a misunderstood Christian wrongly sentenced to prison?
Are you saying that Jesus is not capable of saving David Koresh, Sadam Hussein, etc?
Jesus could even save them if he wished, while I wouldn't place a bet on it, I am certainly not in a position to rule it out.
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/26/2008 12:19:32 PM
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EStan
Posts: 292
Joined: 7/27/2005
Status: offline
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I think George Carlin's death should remind all of us - "live your life so the preacher doesn't have to lie at your funeral." Let's all continue to reach out to the lost with the Gospel of Christ Jesus, so that when we hear of one's passing, we don't have to wonder where he or she is.
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Eternal Father, grant that through the tears of repentance I may see more clearly the brightness and glories of the saving cross.
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/26/2008 12:25:03 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 769
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
First of all, the Scripture I quoted wasn't directed at people like Carlin; its far more directed at the hypocrites in this forum and other areas of Christianity who seem to think that, just because they read a Bible every now and then or preach at some pulpit, they're somehow superior to the rest of mankind, and thus have the right to condem Carlin, Obama, Bush, or anyone else they disagree with and claim they're going to be burning in Hell. In short, he's speaking to all of us... those of us who claim to already be Christians.
So you can judge hypocrites (spell that, "they disagree with you") but nobody else on the forum has you level of sophistication. Interesting to meet yet another someone above the rest of the forum and come to entertain enlighten the rest of us poor smucks.
Again, you put words in my mouth that aren't there, Jamie. Is that how you win all arguments? I never judged anyone, nor did I call anyone specifically a hypocrite. I never said that I was above anyone else on here, either, Jamie. You shouldn't read into people like that. Its not a nice way to make friends.
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Jesus is telling us in the Scripture I quoted that we are not capable of being able to judge whether or not someone is going to Hell....
Typical unlearned, politically-correct spin on the passage. The world adores such bad interpretation.
Did you have a similar opinion of Saddam Hussein when he was executed? What about David Koresh and Jim Jones when they died? Is Charles Manson just a misunderstood Christian wrongly sentenced to prison?
Actually its a very learned interpretation of the Bible. I suppose I could go into how he was addressing Romans and Tax Collectors, instead. I mean, lets go with a historical interpretation, too, right? As I stated, the entire Bible is open to interpretation. Maybe its just seems unlearned to you because it doesn't go along with the stereotypical "baptist" version of how the Bible should be viewed (if I might be so judgemental)
Your examples are pointless, by the way. These people (at least Sadaam and Manson) were guilty of the crimes they committed against society, and they have been judged BY SOCIETIES STANDARDS for punishment BY SOCIETY! As far as I know, the judge never said "... and I sentence you to death by (select method here), and eternity in Hell." I think its pretty obvious that Jesus is talking about eternal judgement in the next world; not this one. Let's not confuse the two, son.
Remember just because something seems politically-correct doesn't make it wrong, Jamie.
< Message edited by TorchHeart -- 6/26/2008 4:18:15 PM >
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RE: Edgy comic George Carlin dies in L.A., aged 71 - 6/26/2008 12:38:50 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2025
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
”Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measurement ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote (speck) that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and them shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.” Matthew 7:1-5
Okay, so you quoted some scripture that seems to fit your premise, but do you understand it? Let's look down just a few more verses in the same chapter you quoted:
15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Care to comment on those and explain how it connects with the ones you quoted and why it doesn't reflect on old George?
I am glad to see so many Christians were with George at his deathbed, hearing his last words, reading his last thoughts..... It brings me SUCH comfort! [Sarc/off]
George had his judgement but I think Jesus was the one doing it not you or I! And only God knows us that intimately to make a just judgement! By his life we might say the probability he is in heaven may be slim. But what's the probability that God would become man and die as a ransom for our sins? I don't think anyone even thought of that possibility except for some OT prophets.
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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