RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked for it here it is!
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 2:03:54 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
So, when you start throwing fits and condemning the rich and praying to God to more or less smite them, you had better step back and realize that to MOST of the world, you're just as obscenely, unreachably rich as the people that you're condemning, and that you're heaping coals of fire on your own head there. You would be MUCH better off spending your time trying to help those less fortunate than you. Let God worry about whether or not the obscenely rich are doing their part... because in the eyes of so many, YOU are obscenely rich too.
I so agree with this! Ironic how so many people who hate seeing people get rich are themselves living obscenely luxurious lives compared to most of the world. Y'all better sell your TVs, start living on rice and beans, move to the smallest apartment the health department will allow for family size, and get rid of your car and bus passes and walk everywhere, and redistribute all that extra wealth to people who are poorer, *then* you will have a leg to stand on in condemning the wealthy.  I know only a few people who have actually done that, and most of them are Benedictine monks and nuns living in the Bronx.
I think there is a balance that needs to be found. Having wealth and increasing wealth is not in and of itself a sin. And wealth does carry with it specific temptations to specific kinds of sins. But a dedicated Christian will see the money they have as God's and not their own, and look for opportunities to use it for the benefit of others rather than just themselves. One of our family's goals is to be able to live on less than 50% of our income, to free up that much money for ministries and missions we desperately want to support. In order to do that, our income will have to be well above the average in America. And what if we do end up with millions? If we lived on only 20% of a multi-million dollar income and gave all the rest away, that would still be an above average amount and people would still envy us, I don't doubt. 
I have also known plenty of poor people, and believe me, poverty by itself is no guarantee of saintliness. 
_____________________________
 Moo
Shameless Self Promotion~This week's giveaway: For Young Men Only. Don't miss it!
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 2:07:28 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
start living on rice and beans,
Do I detect a fellow Dave Ramsey fan? 
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 2:09:04 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
These verses are speaking of the rich who turn away from the Lord and trust their riches or put their faith in their wealth. These verses speak to the rich who ignore the hungry and poor.
I find nothing in these verses that tells the rest of us to attempt to take their money from them to give to the poor.
So the verse that says woe to the rich is what? Not woe to those that don't help the poor, just rich.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 2:15:43 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
These verses are speaking of the rich who turn away from the Lord and trust their riches or put their faith in their wealth. These verses speak to the rich who ignore the hungry and poor.
I find nothing in these verses that tells the rest of us to attempt to take their money from them to give to the poor.
So the verse that says woe to the rich is what? Not woe to those that don't help the poor, just rich.
From Luke chapter 6:
17He went down with them and stood on a level place. A large crowd of his disciples was there and a great number of people from all over Judea, from Jerusalem, and from the coast of Tyre and Sidon, 18who had come to hear him and to be healed of their diseases. Those troubled by evil[a] spirits were cured, 19and the people all tried to touch him, because power was coming from him and healing them all.
20Looking at his disciples, he said:
"Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
21Blessed are you who hunger now,
for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who weep now,
for you will laugh.
22Blessed are you when men hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.
23"Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets.
24"But woe to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.
25Woe to you who are well fed now,
for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,
for you will mourn and weep.
26Woe to you when all men speak well of you,
for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.
In the context as was given, then yes I do believe it is talking about those who were rich and not helping the poor. Otherwise if you are to take things out of context then in Luke 6:20 is saying that all men who are poor will be going to heaven.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 2:27:15 PM
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P31W
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MartyFran,
Good thoughts on your posts. I cannot help but think that much of what you question cannot be pretty much said about anyone no matter if they seek to be extremely wealthy or the best pool player in the joint. Each of us makes choices about whether or not we seek God's will for our life in any area of our life. (money, marriage, time, leisure, job preformance, honesty, truthfulness, church faithfulness, prayer time etc)
You gave a figure of something like $100M and wondered if one can reasonably have that type of net worth and not be out of God's will/ways.
My question is why would you think God is not the one who blessed his child what that wealth? Why do you believe it must come with some "sin pricetag"? Can you also turn the question around and ask if someone making $50K per year is somehow out of God's will or a net worth of 2M out of God's will? According to the passage below I see that it matters not the "amount" rather the heart. Remember Solomon's prayer?
Luke 16
8And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
9And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
10He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
11If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
12And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
13No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
< Message edited by P31W -- 6/25/2008 2:39:54 PM >
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 2:29:52 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1815
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quote:
In the context as was given, then yes I do believe it is talking about those who were rich and not helping the poor. Otherwise if you are to take things out of context then in Luke 6:20 is saying that all men who are poor will be going to heaven.
Please show me where I said anything about Luke 6:20?
These strawmans are killing me!
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 2:36:30 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
In the context as was given, then yes I do believe it is talking about those who were rich and not helping the poor. Otherwise if you are to take things out of context then in Luke 6:20 is saying that all men who are poor will be going to heaven.
Please show me where I said anything about Luke 6:20?
These strawmans are killing me!
I have a feeling you are intentionally being difficult on this one.
You brought up the verse that says "woe to the rich". That verse is Luke 6:24. I gave it to you in the context of the verses before and after to show you why I felt it was speaking to the rich who had not attempted to help the poor. My bringing up Luke 6:20 was merely an example of what one can come up with if one is to take every line out of context. In my example, one could take Luke 6:20 out of context if one so desired to read that all poor men would be inheriting the kingdom of heaven.
It was an example of mine, I never attributed the thought to you, and I am not attributing the thought to you now.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 2:41:41 PM
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P31W
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Here is the passage about what Solomon was to do and what God would do for him.
1 Kings 3
5 That night the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream, and God said, "What do you want? Ask, and I will give it to you!" 6 Solomon replied, "You were wonderfully kind to my father, David, because he was honest and true and faithful to you. And you have continued this great kindness to him today by giving him a son to succeed him. 7 O LORD my God, now you have made me king instead of my father, David, but I am like a little child who doesn't know his way around. 8 And here I am among your own chosen people, a nation so great they are too numerous to count! 9 Give me an understanding mind so that I can govern your people well and know the difference between right and wrong. For who by himself is able to govern this great nation of yours?" 10 The Lord was pleased with Solomon's reply and was glad that he had asked for wisdom. 11 So God replied, "Because you have asked for wisdom in governing my people and have not asked for a long life or riches for yourself or the death of your enemies – 12 I will give you what you asked for! I will give you a wise and understanding mind such as no one else has ever had or ever will have! 13 And I will also give you what you did not ask for – riches and honor! No other king in all the world will be compared to you for the rest of your life! 14 And if you follow me and obey my commands as your father, David, did, I will give you a long life."
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 2:44:43 PM
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KatMack
Posts: 981
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From: Along the Canopy Roads
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
In the context as was given, then yes I do believe it is talking about those who were rich and not helping the poor. Otherwise if you are to take things out of context then in Luke 6:20 is saying that all men who are poor will be going to heaven.
Please show me where I said anything about Luke 6:20?
These strawmans are killing me!
I'm guessing it came from Post #53 here you said:
quote:
So the verse that says woe to the rich is what? Not woe to those that don't help the poor, just rich.
Since you didn't specify which "woe to the rich" verse and a search for "woe" and "rich" only brings up Luke 6:24 (in the NIV), it would seem the logical conclusion that this passage is what you were referencing.
Also, if verse Luke 6:24 means that being rich is evil, what about verse 25? We all best start being hungry and not laughing...
--Kat
< Message edited by KatMack -- 6/25/2008 2:53:50 PM >
_____________________________
<-- My sweet blessings.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 2:47:06 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KatMack
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
In the context as was given, then yes I do believe it is talking about those who were rich and not helping the poor. Otherwise if you are to take things out of context then in Luke 6:20 is saying that all men who are poor will be going to heaven.
Please show me where I said anything about Luke 6:20?
These strawmans are killing me!
I'm guessing it came from Post #53 here you said:
quote:
So the verse that says woe to the rich is what? Not woe to those that don't help the poor, just rich.
Since you didn't specify which "woe to the rich" verse and a search for "woe" and "rich" only brings up Luke 6:20 (in the NIV), it would seem the logical conclusion that that is the verse you were referencing.
--Kat
Or in post #41 where Luke 6:24 was given as the verse of "woe to the rich".
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 2:53:00 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 549
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
You gave a figure of something like $100M and wondered if one can reasonably have that type of net worth and not be out of God's will/ways.
My question is why would you think God is not the one who blessed his child what that wealth? Why do you believe it must come with some "sin pricetag"? Can you also turn the question around and ask if someone making $50K per year is somehow out of God's will or a net worth of 2M out of God's will? According to the passage below I see that it matters not the "amount" rather the heart. Remember Solomon's prayer?
P31W,
I think you missed my point a bit. I wasn't saying that earning $100M+ must come with a sin price tag, but is the pursuit of such a goal more likely to be filled with more temptations towards sin. The $100M number is arbitrary, but the point I was trying to make was that if you want to make that much money, your strategy is going to be different than if you want to make $1 or $2M. To make the big money, you are probably going to have to obsessively pursue wealth, which could lead to making money your god, etc.
I agree it is the heart that counts. If I am making $50k per year, and God calls me to move to a poor place and make $5k per year, then my only legitimate answer is to say yes Lord! My point was that people who pursue the big dollars as a goal (now, some may seem to stumble upon it, but it wasn't their goal) may need to be warned of some potential dangers.
I hope I am clear, but I am glad to hear from you again, I haven't been on the finance boards in a long time.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 2:58:26 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1815
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whew ok.
Let's try a different tact, maybe that will help.
do you think Oprah has been blessed with her money?
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 3:07:01 PM
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ta_mosquito
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Moving this from Current Events to Morality & Ethics.
Thanks!
Tricia
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 3:17:35 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
whew ok.
Let's try a different tact, maybe that will help.
do you think Oprah has been blessed with her money?
No, I'd rather not change the subject. You asked about the verse of "woe to the rich", to which I responded to you. Why not reply?
We could spend the next ten years talking about each individual person who is wealthy and whether or not we feel they deserve their money, but that was not your original argument. Your original argument was about ALL rich in general, not specific people who have loads of money.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 3:33:21 PM
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tracydolls
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Actually I asked the question waaay before, no one chose to answer.
Post #29
We are not changing the subject we are still talking about the riches Cheerleaders.
I doubt any of the 400 are on here. (ex.) I'm talking to the CHEERLEADERS.
The Bible says woe to the rich, they have their reward.
Again in Luke. What is there not to understand?
Woe to them. period.
Do I want G-d's Will to be done? YES! Don't you? If the way to Heaven is hard like a camel going thru a needles's eye, OK. I'm in agreement with that. Make it just that hard.
What is troubling and we could go on till Jesus comes back is the Cheerleaders!
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 6/25/2008 3:39:41 PM >
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 3:44:46 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Actually I asked the question waaay before, no one chose to answer.
Post #29
We are not changing the subject we are still talking about the riches Cheerleaders.
I doubt any of the 400 are on here. (ex.) I'm talking to the CHEERLEADERS.
The Bible says woe to the rich, they have their reward.
Again in Luke. What is there not to understand?
Woe to them. period.
Do I want G-d's Will to be done? YES! Don't you? If the way to Heaven is hard like a camel going thru a needles's eye, OK. I'm in agreement with that. Make it just that hard.
What is troubling and we could go on till Jesus comes back is the Cheerleaders!
Have it your way, tracydolls. But IMO, you are doing nothing more than avoiding having to defend your position.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 3:47:11 PM
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Zhi
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Could you explain what one would expect to see in order to identify one of these "cheerleaders"?
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 4:28:23 PM
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doinkdom
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quote:
I'm just sick of seeing people on TV showing off junk that cost 1000's and then the next ad is the CHRISTIAN CHILDRENS FUND asking for 27 cents for children with flies swarming around them.
That's just marketing...and some very good marketing at that.
Being rich is NOT a sin any more than being poor and the scriptures being used to say so have been proven more than once to be out of context and inaccurate. (#43, #38, etc.)
It's like flipping open scripture and reading "Judas hung himself" and then flipping back and reading "go and do likewise."
Have there been autrocities done in the name of big business and big money - yes.
Have people actually been behind these terrible things - yes.
Are all rich people Christian? no
Are all Christian's rich? yes, but in spirit and truth - not always money
Is there a responsibility to care for the widowed and orphaned - of course there is and many churches do this as well as individuals. But to rely or demand that every person who is "rich" foot the bill...well, that's not biblical at all and goes against much of what scripture says about caring for oneself and family.
Caring for one another in community is what scripture points out for our lives. Living in community, people share what they have with one another.
As for me, I really don't understand why this is such a hobby-horse for anyone.
Some people have money, some people don't. By focusing on what we don't have or what someone else should be doing...we only make it an idol and God is not pleased.
_____________________________
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 4:29:37 PM
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freakofnature
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quote:
What is troubling and we could go on till Jesus comes back is the Cheerleaders!
GIVE ME AN "R"
R
GIVE ME AN "I"
I
GIVE ME A "C"
C
GIVE ME A "H"
H
WHAT"S THAT SPELL...
RICH RICH RICH. YEEEEAAAAHHH RICH.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 4:35:33 PM
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HisFish
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The wealthy do not possess any more penchant for sin as do the poor. The wealthy who take pride in their wealth only are no more sinful than retired school teachers who take pride in their humble state. After all, their are religionists who boast in their poverty as though their poverty made them more spiritual
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 4:41:36 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
The wealthy do not possess any more penchant for sin as do the poor. The wealthy who take pride in their wealth only are no more sinful than retired school teachers who take pride in their humble state. After all, their are religionists who boast in their poverty as though their poverty made them more spiritual
LOL. But I don't live in poverty so how can I take pride in my humble state?
That's only one part of my income, my husband works, my twins biological dad died and left them oodles of money. And at 8, them sending money to different children in other countries, I think they got it more than some of these Christians on here.
Sheesh.
Pro 31:9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 4:45:29 PM
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KatMack
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quote:
LOL. But I don't live in poverty so how can I take pride in my humble state?
<snip> And at 8, them sending money to different children in other countries, I think they got it more than some of these Christians on here.
Sheesh.
Wow. How can you pass judgement and say that "some of these Christians on here" don't "get it" and aren't giving at least as much as your children? I think I am seeing a good bit of pride here.
--Kat
_____________________________
<-- My sweet blessings.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 4:46:47 PM
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KatMack
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quote:
Pro 31:9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.
And to go back to the topic that spawned this thread (Socialized Medicine). Most of us are pleading the cause of the poor and the needy. We just think that individual help and market reform are the answer, not government intervention.
--Kat
_____________________________
<-- My sweet blessings.
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