RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked for it here it is!
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/26/2008 5:28:16 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1197
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: The Land Of The Burnt Thigh
Status: online
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quote:
A couple of points that you need to be educated on. First of all, Social Security was set up as a welfare program, not a retirement program. It is a welfare program because it set up on a pay as you go basis.
Also, it most assuredly was NOT set up as a welfare program, but as a compulsory savings plan administered as insurance against destitution.
_____________________________
John Galt '08
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/26/2008 8:08:34 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 548
Joined: 7/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
quote:
A couple of points that you need to be educated on. First of all, Social Security was set up as a welfare program, not a retirement program. It is a welfare program because it set up on a pay as you go basis.
Also, it most assuredly was NOT set up as a welfare program, but as a compulsory savings plan administered as insurance against destitution.
If you take from people who work and give to people who don't work, what is that if not welfare?
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/26/2008 8:27:48 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 557
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
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quote:
If you take from people who work and give to people who don't work, what is that if not welfare?
Theft.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/26/2008 10:46:52 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
If you take from people who work and give to people who don't work, what is that if not welfare?
Theft.
Ding Ding Ding! That answer is . . . . . CORRECT! 
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/26/2008 11:09:06 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 548
Joined: 7/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
If you take from people who work and give to people who don't work, what is that if not welfare?
Theft.
Ding Ding Ding! That answer is . . . . . CORRECT!
So, Social Security is theft? I don't think so, after all, you consented to the taxatation with your presence the country. You could move to a lower tax country, people do it all the time.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/26/2008 11:38:56 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 557
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
If you take from people who work and give to people who don't work, what is that if not welfare?
Theft.
Ding Ding Ding! That answer is . . . . . CORRECT! [Sam=thumbsup.gif]
So, Social Security is theft? I don't think so, after all, you consented to the taxatation with your presence the country. You could move to a lower tax country, people do it all the time.
Sorry, social security is not what was described.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/27/2008 1:30:38 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1815
Joined: 3/30/2008
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Ya'll wanna take away Social Security also? That's theft? 
So no medical insurance
No welfare
No social security
No food stamps
No wic
No free lunches
No soup kitchens in the park?
No shelters
No help with natural disasters
WE rather spend our tax dollars on
Building bridges to nowhere,
Fund abortions, and yes we all fund them one or another
Bailout out banks every so often with $Billions. Investment banks, mortage companies, (you know those people that have been very irresponsible with their money and ours)
WAR(how much is up to now that we have spent)
Drill up the last few places of earth we have'nt drilled, damaged or dug up. (what's left-Anwar?)
Weapons of Mass destruction( how many nukes we got?)
Buy oil from Iran so they can buy a nuke to bomb Israel.
I'll explain cheerleading.
In the history of slavery, the actual owners/masters/rich/elite of slaves was probaly 20%- 25%
How was slavery able to go on so long?
the Cheerleaders.
They fought and died by the 100,000's for the owners/masters/rich/elite in the Civil War.
W.E.B Dubois called them the "unwashed masses"
I call them the Cheerleaders 
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 6/27/2008 6:26:46 AM >
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/27/2008 8:03:13 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 548
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
[
ROTFL!!!!! 
Ooooooo, you certainly got me there! What a fantastic point!
Hey, maybe if someone robs my house it's my fault too because I built it in their neighborhood. Yes, yes! Common sense is ALIVE!!!!!
No, theft is when someone takes something that isn't yours. If you want a car, it is not theft, if the car dealer wants cash for the car. Now, if you want to live in the US, you have to play by the US's rules. One of those rules is to pay social security taxes if you work. Now obviously you have a choice not to live here. You can go somewhere else. If you have the option to seek a better deal elsewhere, as you do with the car dealer, then how is social security theft, but not a car dealer making you pay for the car?
Also, can you post some scriptures saying that taxation is theft?
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/27/2008 8:30:44 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3523
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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This is the problem I have with people who in one insatnce villify the rich, the possession of money, and in another instance suggest that money is the answer to poverty.
If money is evil and the possession of money makes people evil, why do you want to give poor people....money? Wouldn't that be hatred?
If it is the amount of money that is evil, please show a dollar figure as to when aquisition of money becomes evil.
Fact is...poverty, financial, comes from spitirual lack. Other than physical ailments and crime, poverty is a heart issue. You drank too much. You did too many drugs. You are lazy. You made poor choices. You acted irresponsibly. You started a famly irresponsibly. You impregnated 5 women with kids and now have a ton of child support. You impreganted 5 women and have to pay for abortions. You did a crime and are in jail. You lost your job because you didn't show up, show up on time or show up sober.
The vast majority of poverty, financial, is self infleicted. The way out of self inflicted poverty is....Jesus Christ. Not some wealth and prosperity doctrine stuff. Plain old christianity that teaches how to have relationships with people and how to treat ourselves with respect, honor and dilligence.
Please do not respond with sob stories about people in poverty when it was not their fault. Stuff does happen in life and sometimes its not our fault...but the vast majority of times...it is.
I am not talking about the infrim, the criminal victim or the truly abused. I am not talking abouit the people who choose to be poor for whatever reason.
People get out of poverty...all the time. The ones who wallow in it, make that choice. If you want more people to get out of poverty...
stop......villifying....the....ones...who....do!!!!!
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/27/2008 8:32:43 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Ya'll wanna take away Social Security also?
No, I want the government to fix all of the programs that are failing miserably because of their spending on ridiculous nonsense things.
Don't take it away, fix it.
And in the meantime, please let's not add any more doomed-to-fail programs to the plate.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/27/2008 8:45:34 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 548
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Fact is...poverty, financial, comes from spitirual lack. Other than physical ailments and crime, poverty is a heart issue. You drank too much. You did too many drugs. You are lazy. You made poor choices. You acted irresponsibly. You started a famly irresponsibly. You impregnated 5 women with kids and now have a ton of child support. You impreganted 5 women and have to pay for abortions. You did a crime and are in jail. You lost your job because you didn't show up, show up on time or show up sober.
Certainly, these things can be a cause of poverty, but are they the only cause of poverty. My grandmother was poor most of her life, yet she was not spiritually lacking, at least compared to the average Christian. Her main problem was two fold:
1. She lived on a farm (not big bucks there)
2. She lived in a poor region of the country.
Similarly, it is possible that someone is living in a village in Columbia and they are poor not due any fault of their own, but due to their circumstances.
quote:
The vast majority of poverty, financial, is self infleicted. The way out of self inflicted poverty is....Jesus Christ. Not some wealth and prosperity doctrine stuff. Plain old christianity that teaches how to have relationships with people and how to treat ourselves with respect, honor and dilligence.
Is the vast majority of poverty self inflicted? Does this include people in Africa, Asia, etc? I have never seen the numbers. Also, if a poor person in one of these villages starts a relationship was Jesus Christ, does that mean they will become middle class instead of poor?
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/27/2008 8:49:08 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3523
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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quote:
1. She lived on a farm (not big bucks there)
2. She lived in a poor region of the country.
A free will choice...one I applaud by the way. I was raised on a farm and its a good life.
quote:
Is the vast majority of poverty self inflicted? Does this include people in Africa, Asia, etc?
I live in america. Its the system I know and recognise. The poverty of other coutries isn't a fair comparison. The poorest here are rich by the world's standards. I am not sure world poverty is the topic.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/27/2008 8:50:23 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
No, theft is when someone takes something that isn't yours. If you want a car, it is not theft, if the car dealer wants cash for the car. Now, if you want to live in the US, you have to play by the US's rules. One of those rules is to pay social security taxes if you work. Now obviously you have a choice not to live here. You can go somewhere else. If you have the option to seek a better deal elsewhere, as you do with the car dealer, then how is social security theft, but not a car dealer making you pay for the car?
Also, can you post some scriptures saying that taxation is theft?
Nice try, but I never said taxation was theft, did I?
It's not about paying taxes, it's about the way the government spends the money they receive. It is about the way they promise the citizens will be getting a certain service or product with their tax money and then never follow through once the tax is in place.
In your example, if we are to truly compare a car dealer to the government, the story would be quite different than the norm. This car dealer would take you around the lot and show you the nicest cars. You select one of those cars, a 2006 Honda Civic with low miles, you go inside and fill out the paperwork. After you're done and the sale is complete, the dealership then shows you to the car you have purchased, a 1985 Dodge Omni with 170K miles.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/27/2008 9:21:52 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 548
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
It's not about paying taxes, it's about the way the government spends the money they receive. It is about the way they promise the citizens will be getting a certain service or product with their tax money and then never follow through once the tax is in place.
In your example, if we are to truly compare a car dealer to the government, the story would be quite different than the norm. This car dealer would take you around the lot and show you the nicest cars. You select one of those cars, a 2006 Honda Civic with low miles, you go inside and fill out the paperwork. After you're done and the sale is complete, the dealership then shows you to the car you have purchased, a 1985 Dodge Omni with 170K miles.
Ok, what were we promised and what didn't we get?
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/27/2008 9:27:28 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
It's not about paying taxes, it's about the way the government spends the money they receive. It is about the way they promise the citizens will be getting a certain service or product with their tax money and then never follow through once the tax is in place.
In your example, if we are to truly compare a car dealer to the government, the story would be quite different than the norm. This car dealer would take you around the lot and show you the nicest cars. You select one of those cars, a 2006 Honda Civic with low miles, you go inside and fill out the paperwork. After you're done and the sale is complete, the dealership then shows you to the car you have purchased, a 1985 Dodge Omni with 170K miles.
Ok, what were we promised and what didn't we get?
LOL! I thought you were "educated" on the government programs?
Anyway, I'm gonna take my time on this one. Make sure I have some nice links to go along with it, because I know you would ask for them if I posted first without.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/27/2008 10:34:01 AM
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upNORTder
Posts: 227
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Fact is...poverty, financial, comes from spitirual lack. Other than physical ailments and crime, poverty is a heart issue. You drank too much. You did too many drugs. You are lazy. You made poor choices. You acted irresponsibly. You started a famly irresponsibly. You impregnated 5 women with kids and now have a ton of child support. You impreganted 5 women and have to pay for abortions. You did a crime and are in jail. You lost your job because you didn't show up, show up on time or show up sober.
The vast majority of poverty, financial, is self infleicted. The way out of self inflicted poverty is....Jesus Christ. Not some wealth and prosperity doctrine stuff. Plain old christianity that teaches how to have relationships with people and how to treat ourselves with respect, honor and dilligence.
Please do not respond with sob stories about people in poverty when it was not their fault. Stuff does happen in life and sometimes its not our fault...but the vast majority of times...it is.
I am not talking about the infrim, the criminal victim or the truly abused. I am not talking abouit the people who choose to be poor for whatever reason.
People get out of poverty...all the time. The ones who wallow in it, make that choice. If you want more people to get out of poverty...
stop......villifying....the....ones...who....do!!!!!
Proverbs 22:2 (New International Version)
2 Rich and poor have this in common:
The LORD is the Maker of them all.
Proverbs 28:6 (New International Version)
6 Better a poor man whose walk is blameless
than a rich man whose ways are perverse.
Proverbs 28:11 (New International Version)
11 A rich man may be wise in his own eyes,
but a poor man who has discernment sees through him.
James 2:4-6 (New International Version)
4have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
5Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?
The scriptures say that you are wrong about poverty.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/27/2008 10:57:13 AM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1197
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: The Land Of The Burnt Thigh
Status: online
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quote:
If you take from people who work and give to people who don't work, what is that if not welfare?
A poorly administered, bureaucratically-challenged, under performing savings plan that pays a return lower than the rate of inflation.
_____________________________
John Galt '08
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/27/2008 11:02:56 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3986
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Someone already mentioned this, but being wealthy doesn't mean you have millions or billions at your disposal. Conversely, being poor doesn't mean you go without. You can be dirt poor and never take a handout.
It takes all kinds. If you work hard and use the brain God gave you, the chances are very good that you will live comfortably, no matter what your income is.
It is not a sin to have material wealth and it is not righteous to have nothing. There are thieves on both ends.
_____________________________
I'm tired of signatures.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/27/2008 11:14:16 AM
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freakofnature
Posts: 759
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Someone already mentioned this, but being wealthy doesn't mean you have millions or billions at your disposal. Conversely, being poor doesn't mean you go without. You can be dirt poor and never take a handout.
It takes all kinds. If you work hard and use the brain God gave you, the chances are very good that you will live comfortably, no matter what your income is.
It is not a sin to have material wealth and it is not righteous to have nothing. There are thieves on both ends.
 Stella;
I am humbled at your wisdom... Well said.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/27/2008 12:45:12 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1312
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Fact is...poverty, financial, comes from spitirual lack. Other than physical ailments and crime, poverty is a heart issue. You drank too much. You did too many drugs. You are lazy. You made poor choices. You acted irresponsibly. You started a famly irresponsibly. You impregnated 5 women with kids and now have a ton of child support. You impreganted 5 women and have to pay for abortions. You did a crime and are in jail. You lost your job because you didn't show up, show up on time or show up sober.
Certainly, these things can be a cause of poverty, but are they the only cause of poverty. My grandmother was poor most of her life, yet she was not spiritually lacking, at least compared to the average Christian. Her main problem was two fold:
1. She lived on a farm (not big bucks there)
2. She lived in a poor region of the country.
Similarly, it is possible that someone is living in a village in Columbia and they are poor not due any fault of their own, but due to their circumstances.
Though, with many people here in the U.S. (which has been, and still is still the great "land of opportunity"), there are always ways out of poverty, unlike many other places on Earth, where you are "doomed" and there IS no way out.
Geographic location has alot to do with it. My father grew up in poverty in rural West Virginia. So, what did he do the minute he graduated from high school? Was off to Detroit to work in the auto factories....
That's where I grew up....and, so, once i was out of school and college, Detroit was, and had been, and still is an "economically depressed" area....so, that's why I live in Dallas now.
My dad's relatives, who are still back in West Virginia, are still in the same "condition" they had always been in.
Everyone I know from back in the "old neighborhood" in Detroit hasn't changed much, either.
yet, all are "resentful" and "hostile" towards "success"....whether it was the "success" my father had with the fairly decent job he had.....or, my continuing sucess here in Dallas (doing much better than my parents ever did)....
Oddly enough, GM, Ford and Chrysler all grew by 'leaps and bounds' after WWII and through the 1960s...with the factories being concentrated in the northern midwest (ohio, michigan, etc..etc..)....where did ALL those workers come from? "Recruiters" from the auto companies would go and set up offices in the small towns throughout Kentucky, Tennessee, West Virginia, etc..etc......the "opportunity" to have a good paying, steady job was a strong motivator for millions to move northward.....and, as they did, many left poverty behind to start their ascent into the "middle class".....
So, yes, geographic location can be a CAUSE of poverty....but, there are solutions. At least here in this country.
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/27/2008 6:17:52 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
Posts: 2544
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: California
Status: online
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The definition of what wealthy is, is just like what the definition of physical beauty is..........
very very subjective.
I have more to say, but I have some things to do, and need to log out of Crosswalk for now.
_____________________________
"We basically use what I have seen referred to as "get off your butt" parenting. It employs more interaction, more redirection, more prevention, and usually less spanking."
-Mrs. Wifey
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/27/2008 9:15:38 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3523
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
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quote:
Proverbs 22:2 (New International Version)
2 Rich and poor have this in common:
The LORD is the Maker of them all.
Proverbs 28:6 (New International Version)
6 Better a poor man whose walk is blameless
than a rich man whose ways are perverse.
Proverbs 28:11 (New International Version)
11 A rich man may be wise in his own eyes,
but a poor man who has discernment sees through him.
James 2:4-6 (New International Version)
4have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
5Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?
All of these scriptures support the ideal that having wealth is not evil. Its how you deal with it. They also support that just being poor...alone...is not a blessed state. It must be accompanied by faith, to be blessed.
The same is for the rich. Money alone will not make you happy.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/28/2008 12:43:41 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 548
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
Proverbs 22:2 (New International Version)
2 Rich and poor have this in common:
The LORD is the Maker of them all.
Proverbs 28:6 (New International Version)
6 Better a poor man whose walk is blameless
than a rich man whose ways are perverse.
Proverbs 28:11 (New International Version)
11 A rich man may be wise in his own eyes,
but a poor man who has discernment sees through him.
James 2:4-6 (New International Version)
4have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
5Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?
All of these scriptures support the ideal that having wealth is not evil. Its how you deal with it. They also support that just being poor...alone...is not a blessed state. It must be accompanied by faith, to be blessed.
The same is for the rich. Money alone will not make you happy.
These scripture verses do provide warnings of the potential pitfalls of having wealth. While there is nothing intrinsically wrong with wealth, there can be many temptations that come with wealth. So I think it is reasonable that scripture warns us of the potential pitfalls. My biggest problem is that our culture worships at the altar of wealth. I think some Christians at times get too close to that altar for comfort. The other extreme is not good either, but when it comes to attitudes towards some money, some Christians that I know are not that far away from my secular friends. I think we should be a bit discomforted by that.
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