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RE: Fish, fish, stupid fish (the kind in tanks) - 7/3/2008 9:48:52 AM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10332
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From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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quote:
Donna...Paul has a question about your air system....do you have tube aerators, or just a filtration system? If you don't have tubes that push air into the tank then that could be your major problem right there. Filtration systems only filter the water...they aren't good at putting enough air back into it for fish to really survive. Given the time your fish died it is a very real possibility that that is your problem if you don't have a good air system set up.
We have both...a filtration system and a tube that goes to a large bubble stone in the bottom of the tank.
We are not going to be able to buy more fish for a couple months. Should we just empty the tank and start fresh when we can do it?
_____________________________
I will praise you, O Lord, among the nations;
I will sing of you among the peoples.
For great is your love, reaching to the heavens;
your faithfulness reaches to the skies.
~Psalm 57:9-10~
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RE: Fish, fish, stupid fish (the kind in tanks) - 7/3/2008 1:00:52 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1959
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna
I'm not sure how big it is...the standard small tank. 10 gallons??
So how many goldfish would I want? Are there other "easier" fish that would be good or should we just stick with goldfish?
I definitely want to train Noah to clean the tank...once I learn how. His fish...his job.
Typically, standard tanks are 10-20 gallons. The rule of thumb is one inch of fish per one gallon of water. So a 10 gallon tank should have no more than 10 one inch fish. It should be less if they are gold fish because they are so dirty. If you over populate the tank, the fish will get stressed and ill.
A good pH would be around 7.0. Some fish can tolerate higher or lower pH's. It depends upon the fish. A word about pH. Some water contains buffering chemicals. That means that the pH will gradually shift and changing it back to normal is extremely difficult. It helps to have some knowledge of chemistry to understand that. But keeping the water very clean is the best way avoid those chemical buffers. Some rocks which contain carbonates (like limestone) would be well nigh impossible to change. I don't know what pH limestone would make the water change to. That might be something to research.
As far as using spring water, you have no idea whether or not the condition of the water is tolerable to the fish. Many fish can get used to various waters if they are gradually adapted to it. But sudden changes in water will stress them and they can get sick. It would probably be better to buy distilled or disinfected water first. Make sure you disinfect the tank from any diseases left over from the first batch of fish.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Fish, fish, stupid fish (the kind in tanks) - 7/3/2008 2:31:05 PM
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cindybode
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We have done the beta fish before - Jesse was hoping to have more than one fish.  We saw a small tank set up at PetSmart that would fit on his desk. It had the heater, filter, gravel, etc. I think I might buy that. OK, so NOT goldfish (why does everyone tell you they're easy fish if they're not?  ) How are those tiny little things with the colored stripes - neons, I think they're called? I remember having those as a kid. They're small, so he could have a few of them.
Jesse could easily rearrange his room to have a bigger tank on a stand, which I'm willing to let him do IF he will show me that he can care for a smaller setup. I get the whole thing about bigger tanks being easier, but they are also more expensive.
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If you lock in any creature, from rats to chickens to pigs to people, 10 to 30 or more in a box and force feed them you'll create little monsters. Confinement Education School Operations (CESOs) just don't compare to naturally pastured free-ranged kids.
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RE: Fish, fish, stupid fish (the kind in tanks) - 7/3/2008 2:58:24 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11536
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cindybode
We have done the beta fish before - Jesse was hoping to have more than one fish. We saw a small tank set up at PetSmart that would fit on his desk. It had the heater, filter, gravel, etc. I think I might buy that. OK, so NOT goldfish (why does everyone tell you they're easy fish if they're not? ) How are those tiny little things with the colored stripes - neons, I think they're called? I remember having those as a kid. They're small, so he could have a few of them.
Jesse could easily rearrange his room to have a bigger tank on a stand, which I'm willing to let him do IF he will show me that he can care for a smaller setup. I get the whole thing about bigger tanks being easier, but they are also more expensive.
I think peope tend to think goldfish are easy because they are fairly cheap and it doesn't matter much if they croak  . They are dirty and most grow really big (like a foot long), and are more suited for a pond, IMO.
I think you mean neon tetras. You could probably keep three or four in a small tank.
Check out Eclipse Systems--there are other brands, but the names escape me right now. They make desk-top aquariums and larger ones that need stands, but they are integrated systems and easier to maintain.
Basic rule: 1" (full-grown size) of fish per gallon of water (1/2" for marine).
So if you get a really small tank, you need to choose really small fish
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Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Fish, fish, stupid fish (the kind in tanks) - 7/3/2008 3:18:00 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1959
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cindybode
OK, so NOT goldfish (why does everyone tell you they're easy fish if they're not? )
Gold fish are hardy fish, if I am not mistaken. But they dirty the water more so than other fish. What I would advocate with gold fish is to have extra filtering and keep up the water changes.
I have never actually had a large tank of my own, but I worked in a pet store once. I would probably remove the fish during the water changes, if it was at all practical----then give the water time to settle down before returning the fish. And make sure the fish have adapted to the temperature changes before releasing them into the tank. Pet stores usually do that by letting the fish bag (a quart bag) float on top of the water while the two water temperatures equalize.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Fish, fish, stupid fish (the kind in tanks) - 7/3/2008 4:16:45 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10332
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From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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quote:
The rule of thumb is one inch of fish per one gallon of water. So a 10 gallon tank should have no more than 10 one inch fish. It should be less if they are gold fish because they are so dirty. If you over populate the tank, the fish will get stressed and ill.
Then this wasn't our issue. Our fish were tiny and there were only 8, even at the most. The last few weeks, there were 3.
_____________________________
I will praise you, O Lord, among the nations;
I will sing of you among the peoples.
For great is your love, reaching to the heavens;
your faithfulness reaches to the skies.
~Psalm 57:9-10~
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RE: Fish, fish, stupid fish (the kind in tanks) - 7/3/2008 6:00:19 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1959
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna
quote:
The rule of thumb is one inch of fish per one gallon of water. So a 10 gallon tank should have no more than 10 one inch fish. It should be less if they are gold fish because they are so dirty. If you over populate the tank, the fish will get stressed and ill.
Then this wasn't our issue. Our fish were tiny and there were only 8, even at the most. The last few weeks, there were 3.
Based on that, their stress and subsequent deaths did not occur as a result of overpopulating the tank.
There are some ideas that come to mind. One would be pH stress, as mentioned earlier. There are pH kits but I don't know how reliable they are. I work in the water business, so I am aware of how quickly some shifts in pH can occur. Do you know what the pH of the water was? Were there any rocks or limestone that would change the pH?
Sometimes a germ, or virus of some kind gets into the water.
My best guess (only a guess) is that they were not well adapted to the water. Some fish hobbyists advocated "seeding" the water with healthy bacteria from another tank, preferably the one they came from at the store, then waiting a few days before introducing the fish.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Fish, fish, stupid fish (the kind in tanks) - 7/3/2008 6:05:31 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10332
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From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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I don't know what the pH of the water was. There are rocks in there, but they were from SIL's tank and her fish did fine with them, as did ours...at first.
Thanks for troubleshooting with me, BTW.
_____________________________
I will praise you, O Lord, among the nations;
I will sing of you among the peoples.
For great is your love, reaching to the heavens;
your faithfulness reaches to the skies.
~Psalm 57:9-10~
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RE: Fish, fish, stupid fish (the kind in tanks) - 7/3/2008 7:41:09 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1959
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna
I don't know what the pH of the water was. There are rocks in there, but they were from SIL's tank and her fish did fine with them, as did ours...at first.
Thanks for troubleshooting with me, BTW.
I would probably disinfect the tank anew with a strong chlorine solution and rinse it out real well with tap water. I would probably refill it either with distilled water or really clean bottled water (like from gallon jugs). You could use tap water if you wait awhile til the chlorine dissipates. If you know what your water system uses to chlorinate with, a week or so might be enough time to allow the chorine to evaporate. If they use chlorine bleach, it might take longer to degrade. You could ask your city if they disinfect with chlorine gas. It will definitely dissipate.
Then you could reseed the tank with water from a healthy tank, preferably the one you expect to get the new fish from. Then, give the bacteria time to get established before introducing new fish. You can get both chlorine test kits and pH testers at the pet store or even from swimming pool supply stores. It'll give you a ball park number. A pH of seven ought to be safe. You could probably go as low as 6.5 or as high as 8 and still be safe. Generally, the nitrates from decomposing food and fish wastes may shift the pH toward the acid range (1-5).
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Fish, fish, stupid fish (the kind in tanks) - 7/3/2008 7:43:00 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10332
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From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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Any tap water I would use is spring or well water...no chemicals at all.
_____________________________
I will praise you, O Lord, among the nations;
I will sing of you among the peoples.
For great is your love, reaching to the heavens;
your faithfulness reaches to the skies.
~Psalm 57:9-10~
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RE: Fish, fish, stupid fish (the kind in tanks) - 7/3/2008 7:55:14 PM
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Ellie-Mae
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I have always found goldfish to be VERY easy and hardy. We used to have a lot of other fish when I was a kid, but I like goldfish best because the ARE so easy to take care of. The ones in our tank now are more than a year old and two of them are about a year and a half (at least). And that is with little kids messing with them. moving around the house, jumping across the kitchen, changing temperature and such.
When I say they are easy, that is what I mean... I am not talking about how cheap they are. 
_____________________________
Isaiah 40:29
He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
W2D1
292 more miles to go!
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RE: Fish, fish, stupid fish (the kind in tanks) - 7/3/2008 8:22:05 PM
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Ruthie
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From: Center of the Universe, Canada
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You said you had mollies...
A lot of people don't realize that mollies like hardish water with a touch of salt. When I had mollies, I had a chip of marble in the tank and added a teaspoon of table salt per 5 gallons. Now at the time, I didn't have other fish since normal fishes aren't so fond of brackish water.
Soft, salt-free water can lead to unhealthy mollies. If the tank then has a buildup of nitrogen from the dirty tank, that could make them get sick and die, one by one.
If you want to start out with easy fish, Bettas, Guppies, Platys and Swordtails are hard to beat. If you DO get Swordtails (gorgeous fish, btw) absolutely make sure to have a lid that covers the entire tank. Healthy Swordtails love to jump... works great in a river, not so much in a tank. I learned that the hard way when my pretties did a kamakazi run onto the hardwood floor. 
It is absolutely vital to regularly clean your tank. Here's a guide : How to clean a fish tank
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RE: Fish, fish, stupid fish (the kind in tanks) - 7/3/2008 8:38:00 PM
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HisCovenant
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ellie-Mae
I have always found goldfish to be VERY easy and hardy.
There are lots of varietiets of goldfish and some are hardy and easy... others are very difficult to maintain because they are very fragile. It is silly to class them all together as either hardy or fragile. If you are getting common goldfish or commets, they are pretty easy if you keep them clean and check the PH. If you go with orandas or bubble eyes (just to name a few,) they are no longer easy to maintain... and they aren't cheap, either. Things like Moors are in between... they are pretty inexpensive, but not as hardy as commets and not as difficult as orandas. One really has to be more specific when he speaks of goldfish to have a understandable conversation about whether they are easy or difficult. It's not cut and dried to say one way or the other.
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My friends call me Zippy!
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RE: Fish, fish, stupid fish (the kind in tanks) - 7/3/2008 10:32:25 PM
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Ps103
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Goldfish are carp, and in ponds they can live almost forever. My grandparents had a goldfish pond and some of the fish in it were *old*. Like 20 years. And they reproduced quite a bit, too. The biggest cause of fish loss in that pond was neighborhood children who tried to catch them. The really fancy eye-catching ones are not nearly so hardy--they need attention, and ignoring their water parameters will result in their swimming upside-down.
We are talking a small space with an aquarium. The smaller the space, the less stable the system will be. They may sell ten-gallon tanks as "starter aquariums," but they really are a lot harder to take care of than, say a 55 gallon tank. The 55 gallon tank will not be so likely to crash--and when a tank crashes, it is hard to recover it
Gold fish create a great deal of waste. Waste (from uneaten food and fish doodie) creates ammonia. Ammonia is *highly* toxic to fish. In a stable system that has cycled, other bacteria will keep the ammonia down, but you really have to stay on top of it. And it is not a cheap hobby
They *can* be kept, but they are not low-maintenence fish. They foul the water, will eat till they founder and require care. If someone wants to take the time to do it, that is fine and good and they will be rewarded. But thinking a tank full of goldfish is going to take care of itself is not gonna happen--that is what I was saying.
Donna--two things did strike me about your fish: 1) you said that you couldn;t keep a betta because your house temps varied widely. Could this also have affected the tank? What season was it when they began dying off? 2) Could the 16-month-old have introduced something from his hands into the tank?
Those two things--along with the fact that our SIL said she would maintain the tank and didn't for what--four months?--seem to be three likely causes of the problem: water temperature, outside poison (to the fish, anyway) or tank crash. Or, the fish could have had a disease.
HERE is a fish forum. I didn't poke around much, but I am sure that the people there would be more than happy to help you out. (There are many forums like that--that was just the first active one I found in a search.)
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Fish, fish, stupid fish (the kind in tanks) - 7/3/2008 10:35:53 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1959
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna
Any tap water I would use is spring or well water...no chemicals at all.
The difficulty with spring water is that you don't know much about the chemicals in it. While there are probably few processed chemicals, you cannot be certain that there are none. Trace chemicals from upstream are likely present but they are not likely to be in any quantity likely to be harmful to the fish.
Spring water is probably acidic. It's likely but it depends upon the minerals in the soil in your area. It is highly unlikely that its pH is less than 6. Between 5 and 6 is drinkable. Without doing a pH test, you can tell if it is acidic because it is "hard water." It would cause you to use extra soap when you need to lather up. If it is basic (over 7), it would lather up rather easily and the slippery feeling takes longer to get rid of.
Fish could probably tolerate pH's on either side of the neutral 7, but introducing them to it suddenly can kill them. That's why I suggested using distilled water initially. Then you could introduce small quantities of the spring water into the tank until they are fully adapted to the spring water. Then regular water changes.
Temperature is a factor too. You need to get that information from your pet store and maybe some book on keeping tank fish. Did you have a heater?
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Fish, fish, stupid fish (the kind in tanks) - 7/3/2008 10:37:21 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1959
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
Goldfish are carp, and in ponds they can live almost forever. My grandparents had a goldfish pond and some of the fish in it were *old*. Like 20 years. And they reproduced quite a bit, too. The biggest cause of fish loss in that pond was neighborhood children who tried to catch them. The really fancy eye-catching ones are not nearly so hardy--they need attention, and ignoring their water parameters will result in their swimming upside-down.
We are talking a small space with an aquarium. The smaller the space, the less stable the system will be. They may sell ten-gallon tanks as "starter aquariums," but they really are a lot harder to take care of than, say a 55 gallon tank. The 55 gallon tank will not be so likely to crash--and when a tank crashes, it is hard to recover it
Gold fish create a great deal of waste. Waste (from uneaten food and fish doodie) creates ammonia. Ammonia is *highly* toxic to fish. In a stable system that has cycled, other bacteria will keep the ammonia down, but you really have to stay on top of it. And it is not a cheap hobby
They *can* be kept, but they are not low-maintenence fish. They foul the water, will eat till they founder and require care. If someone wants to take the time to do it, that is fine and good and they will be rewarded. But thinking a tank full of goldfish is going to take care of itself is not gonna happen--that is what I was saying.
Donna--two things did strike me about your fish: 1) you said that you couldn;t keep a betta because your house temps varied widely. Could this also have affected the tank? What season was it when they began dying off? 2) Could the 16-month-old have introduced something from his hands into the tank?
Those two things--along with the fact that our SIL said she would maintain the tank and didn't for what--four months?--seem to be three likely causes of the problem: water temperature, outside poison (to the fish, anyway) or tank crash. Or, the fish could have had a disease.
HERE is a fish forum. I didn't poke around much, but I am sure that the people there would be more than happy to help you out. (There are many forums like that--that was just the first active one I found in a search.)
I concur.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Fish, fish, stupid fish (the kind in tanks) - 7/3/2008 11:01:42 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10332
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Cow country, Upstate NY
Status: online
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quote:
Donna--two things did strike me about your fish: 1) you said that you couldn;t keep a betta because your house temps varied widely. Could this also have affected the tank? What season was it when they began dying off?
It was February when we got them. I think they all lived until May, then a couple died, then some time and then a couple more. The last four went over a couple weeks. So none died until spring, when the temperature in our house actually was more stable.
quote:
2) Could the 16-month-old have introduced something from his hands into the tank?
God only knows.  He did introduce a PB&J sandwich once. It wasn't in there long. And it was after some of them had already died and no more died soon after the PB&J incident.
quote:
Without doing a pH test, you can tell if it is acidic because it is "hard water."
Slightly hard water, I would say. Not enough to leave hard water marks on things, but it doesn't leave you slippery feeling either.
quote:
Fish could probably tolerate pH's on either side of the neutral 7, but introducing them to it suddenly can kill them. That's why I suggested using distilled water initially. Then you could introduce small quantities of the spring water into the tank until they are fully adapted to the spring water. Then regular water changes.
Noted. Thanks. 
quote:
Temperature is a factor too. You need to get that information from your pet store and maybe some book on keeping tank fish. Did you have a heater?
Yes. SIL thinks maybe it was getting too much sun where it is. But there is nowhere else to put it because I will NOT have it in a room the 16 month old has free access to. And I'm not sure I can limit the sun where it is. Sigh.
_____________________________
I will praise you, O Lord, among the nations;
I will sing of you among the peoples.
For great is your love, reaching to the heavens;
your faithfulness reaches to the skies.
~Psalm 57:9-10~
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RE: Fish, fish, stupid fish (the kind in tanks) - 7/4/2008 8:04:24 AM
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Ellie-Mae
Posts: 4160
Joined: 4/9/2005
From: The EMPIRE state!
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Cindy,
You are more than welcome to see the set up that I have here. I promise that I won't clean my fish tank before your visit next month. You can decide for yourself whether I am out of my mind or just a filthy person or am being honest here about our experience with goldfish. I am sure that there are many kinds of fish that are easy to care for. We have just found goldfish to be the easiest for us as I don't have the time or patience to be fussy over a pet.
_____________________________
Isaiah 40:29
He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
W2D1
292 more miles to go!
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RE: Fish, fish, stupid fish (the kind in tanks) - 7/4/2008 8:38:05 AM
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Ellie-Mae
Posts: 4160
Joined: 4/9/2005
From: The EMPIRE state!
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quote:
Lisa, your fish are certainly more alive and active than ours are.
Aren't your fish... dead?? LOL
_____________________________
Isaiah 40:29
He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
W2D1
292 more miles to go!
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