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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/28/2008 9:13:45 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 529
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
If you think for one minute- the; death penalty, life-w/o parole, or any other lenght of time- will deter someone with a criminal mind-set
I guarantee if you put to death those that deserve it their "mind-set" will be detered. Thanks for your rant, im gonna stay pro death penalty just the same.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/29/2008 11:39:37 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3430
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
Under God's law, the death penalty is only adminstered when the victim is pledged to be married, and raped where nobody can hear a scream.
According to you...
quote:
God's law limits the use of the death penalty, yet you want to expand it, and yet you maintain that God's law supports your position. How does it support you?
Expand it what? People that rape?
He limits it to what?
. Murder (Gen 9:6, Ex 21:12, Numb 35:16-21).
2. Abuse of father or mother (Ex 21:15).
3. Speaking a curse over parents (Ex 21:17).
4. Blasphemy against God (Lev 24:14-16,23).
5. Breaking the Sabbath (Ex 31:14, Numb 15:32-36).
6. Practicing magic (Ex 22:18).
7. Fortune telling and practicing sorcery (Lev 20:27).
8. Religious people who mislead others to fall away (Deut 13:1-5, 18:20).
9. Adultery and fornication (Lev 20:10-12, Deut 22:22).
10. If a woman has intercourse before marriage (Deut 22:20-21).
11. If two people have intercourse when one of them is engaged. (Deut 22:23-24).
12. The daughter of a priest practicing prostitution (Lev 21:9).
13. Rape of someone who is engaged (Deut 22:25).
14. Having intercourse with animals (Ex 22:19).
15. Worshipping idols (Ex 22:20, Lev 20:1-5, Deut 17:2-7).
16. Incest (Lev 20:11-12, 14, 19-21).
17. Homosexuality (Lev 20:13).
18. Kidnapping (Ex 21:16).
19. To bear false testimony at a trial (Deut 19:16, 19).
20. Contempt of court (Deut 17:8-13).
John
PhunkD meant that death penalties for rape according to Deut. involves betrothed women, using those verses you just quoted.
I know that... And I don't agree...
John
But you can't back it up with scripture.
I supported a rapist being put to death for rape...
I said...
Actually if you look harder you can find a verse that speaks of putting a rapist to death...
You asked...
where is this verse, john?
I replied...
Btw... It was right next to verses you posted...
Deuteronomy 22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
John
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/29/2008 11:56:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3430
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 19ramman85
CAUTION! - SHARP CRITICISM AHEAD!
For starters- I used- to be one of those who used to believe in the death penalty ......... then I went to College as a Criminal Justice major, I also studied Sociology/Psycology as well. I also had the privilege to not only work as a Corrections Officer- I also spent some time in County Jail.
Now then .........
I think- nay, believe- some of y'all need to get off your; soap-box, high-horse, pedistal, or whatever you are on. Because you obviously you just don't- "Get It".
If you think for one minute- the; death penalty, life-w/o parole, or any other lenght of time- will deter someone with a criminal mind-set -
Think Again!, because you are sadly mistaken, and need to wake the heck up and smell the coffee, roses, or whatever wakes you up!!!!
Only those who rest on secular reasoning worry if it deters or not...
quote:
And finally - and this is the one thing i really, really gotta harp on!
Where is the compassion Christ taught us in regards to our fellow - Sinners?
Good question... I don't recall Christ having said one word to the thief He promised Paradise regarding his receiving his just punishment for his deeds... That being death...
quote:
Are these people less than human?- Who are you, that you can call yourselfs - "God" - to pass such a harsh punishment?
Obviously you need to go back and really re-read the part where Jesus talked- nay-PREACHED, about forgiving and praying for those who do you/others wrong. Because, from my POV, from reading some of these posts- you are as far away from Christ, just as the rapist, murderer, arsonist, thief, etc are!
Your POV seems to have forgotten the idea of temporal consquences for one's actions...
As for Christ and regarding the treatment of children...
Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
quote:
And how did Jesus say we will be judged?
Oh yeah- in the same like matter- we judged others!
Since I haven't rape any children I'll take His righteous judgment on the matter...
John
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/30/2008 8:08:46 AM
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19ramman85
Posts: 69
Joined: 4/10/2008
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HisFish said ........
quote:
I guarantee if you put to death those that deserve it their "mind-set" will be detered.
Yup- that pt. we'll agree on!
SovereignIsHe said ....
quote:
I supported a rapist being put to death for rape...
I said...
Actually if you look harder you can find a verse that speaks of putting a rapist to death...
You asked...
where is this verse, john?
I replied...
Btw... It was right next to verses you posted...
Deuteronomy 22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
But the only problem w/ that position is ........ if you take the Bible in its - LITERAL, translation- wouldn't it be easy to assume God is only referring to 'engaged/married" women?
(No- I don't take the Word as literal as some do)
quote:
Only those who rest on secular reasoning worry if it deters or not...
Now that you mentioned it ............. There does seem to be a propensity of those who take the Liberal world view of human rights- as compared to - Religious, view of human rights.
quote:
quoted by me:
And finally - and this is the one thing i really, really gotta harp on!
Where is the compassion Christ taught us in regards to our fellow - Sinners?
qouted by SoveriengIs He ....Good question... I don't recall Christ having said one word to the thief He promised Paradise regarding his receiving his just punishment for his deeds... That being death...
Which is the pt. I was geting at, and about drives me nuts @ x's about some Christians.
quote:
Your POV seems to have forgotten the idea of temporal consquences for one's actions...
If I came-off that way- I sincerely apologize!
Every action/word does have consenquences ........... If someone is stupid enough to do the crime- then they are stupid enough to do the time! Which, obviously in my case- does NOT, include the death penalty. Because like I said- the death penalty solves nothing, and is an antiquidated form of punishment.
-charles
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/30/2008 8:29:48 AM
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PhunkD
Posts: 168
Joined: 2/17/2008
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John, quoting a lot of scripture doesn't mean that your position lines up with it.
When do you think the death penalty should be applied. When do you think it should not? If this does not line up with the scriptures, please explain why--particularly in regards to rape, which is the topic of this thread.
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/30/2008 4:08:58 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7059
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
John, quoting a lot of scripture doesn't mean that your position lines up with it.
When do you think the death penalty should be applied. When do you think it should not? If this does not line up with the scriptures, please explain why--particularly in regards to rape, which is the topic of this thread.
I think the thing that is missed completely in this discussion is that a Supreme Court ruling of this sort really should have nothing to do with whether the death penalty acts as a 'deterent', whether it lines up with a particular Scripture, whether it will help or harm the pursuit of child rapists, or any other thing that has been discussed here - it should have to do with whether the Constitution of the United States clearly forbids states from imposing such penalties in such cases – and it is clear that it does not. In fact, there is so little support for such a notion that Justice Kennedy was forced to resort to non-Constitutional arguments, as Justice Alito pointed out in his dissent:
The Court today holds that the Eighth Amendment categorically prohibits the imposition of the death penalty for the crime of raping a child. This is so, according to the no matter how young the child, no matter how many times the child is raped, no matter how many children the perpetrator rapes, no matter how sadistic the crime, no matter how much physical or psychological trauma is inflicted, and no matter how heinous the perpetrator’s record may be. The Court provides two reasons for this sweeping conclusion: First, the Court claims to have identified “a national consensus” that the death penalty is never acceptable for the rape of a child; second, the Court concludes, based on its “independent judgment,” that imposing the death penalty for child rape is inconsistent with “ ‘the evolving standards of decency
that mark the progress of a maturing society.’ Because neither of these justifications
is sound, I respectfully dissent.
And so now we have justices resorting to the ‘national consensus’ when making their rulings, a standard that obviously changes from year to year, and is virtually impossible to assess for such issues. Pitiful.
< Message edited by Jhud -- 6/30/2008 4:47:10 PM >
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/30/2008 5:41:27 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 168
Joined: 2/17/2008
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I hear you, Jhud, but John claimed that Biblical precedent superceded Supreme Court precedent, so I am wondering why he thinks the death penalty should be used on those who rape children.
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/30/2008 5:57:41 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7059
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
I hear you, Jhud, but John claimed that Biblical precedent superceded Supreme Court precedent, so I am wondering why he thinks the death penalty should be used on those who rape children.
For a Christian considering the moral implications of the death penalty for a certain crime, the Bible obviously is of the highest concern. And I would think one would find little support in Scripture against the use of the death penalty on child rapists.
As to the question of whether a state has the right to impose such penalties Costitutionally, the majority on the court got it completely wrong.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/30/2008 6:29:39 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 168
Joined: 2/17/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
For a Christian considering the moral implications of the death penalty for a certain crime, the Bible obviously is of the highest concern. And I would think one would find little support in Scripture against the use of the death penalty on child rapists.
As to the question of whether a state has the right to impose such penalties Costitutionally, the majority on the court got it completely wrong.
You'd think so, but you'd be surprised if you read the scripture.
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/30/2008 6:36:54 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7059
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
You'd think so, but you'd be surprised if you read the scripture.
I have been reading Scripture for well over two decades; I don't see any support for granting amnesty to child rapists. Even Jesus said it would better for someone who causes a little one to stumble that they put a milestone around their neck.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/30/2008 7:17:15 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 168
Joined: 2/17/2008
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Right, but specific penalties were outlined in the old testament.
Rape was punishable by death only if the raped were related, or engaged--with the rape happening in the country.
If a person were to commit rape in the city, the "punishment" would be that he would have to marry the raped, and pay her father.
Like the U.S. Supreme Court, there is no distinction mentioned as to the age of the child, although by todays standards, the victims were most likely children.
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/30/2008 7:44:27 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7059
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Right, but specific penalties were outlined in the old testament.
Rape was punishable by death only if the raped were related, or engaged--with the rape happening in the country.
If a person were to commit rape in the city, the "punishment" would be that he would have to marry the raped, and pay her father.
Like the U.S. Supreme Court, there is no distinction mentioned as to the age of the child, although by todays standards, the victims were most likely children.
Actually, the Old Testament civil law, like all civil law, was applied by the judicial system of the time - not every circumstances was covered, but often sufficient detail was given to make application possible - which is why God gave Israel judges to apply the law to various circumstances. If one considers the authority of parents, laws against sex outside of marriage, laws against adultery, laws against incest, and more general laws against those who rebel against elders in the community, there is little doubt that a child rapist of the sort considered by the Supremes would have been summarily executed under the law of the Old Testament.
But this is partly irrelevant to the main point, which is that there is no Biblical proscription against death penalty for child rapists, and certainly no Constitutional one.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/30/2008 8:02:51 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 168
Joined: 2/17/2008
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Judicial Activism! Legislating from the bench!
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/30/2008 8:16:15 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7059
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Judicial Activism! Legislating from the bench!
Actually, wisdom, based on God's eternal law.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/30/2008 8:20:42 PM
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19ramman85
Posts: 69
Joined: 4/10/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
Under God's law, the death penalty is only adminstered when the victim is pledged to be married, and raped where nobody can hear a scream.
According to you...
quote:
God's law limits the use of the death penalty, yet you want to expand it, and yet you maintain that God's law supports your position. How does it support you?
Expand it what? People that rape?
He limits it to what?
. Murder (Gen 9:6, Ex 21:12, Numb 35:16-21).
2. Abuse of father or mother (Ex 21:15).
3. Speaking a curse over parents (Ex 21:17).
4. Blasphemy against God (Lev 24:14-16,23).
5. Breaking the Sabbath (Ex 31:14, Numb 15:32-36).
6. Practicing magic (Ex 22:18).
7. Fortune telling and practicing sorcery (Lev 20:27).
8. Religious people who mislead others to fall away (Deut 13:1-5, 18:20).
9. Adultery and fornication (Lev 20:10-12, Deut 22:22).
10. If a woman has intercourse before marriage (Deut 22:20-21).
11. If two people have intercourse when one of them is engaged. (Deut 22:23-24).
12. The daughter of a priest practicing prostitution (Lev 21:9).
13. Rape of someone who is engaged (Deut 22:25).
14. Having intercourse with animals (Ex 22:19).
15. Worshipping idols (Ex 22:20, Lev 20:1-5, Deut 17:2-7).
16. Incest (Lev 20:11-12, 14, 19-21).
17. Homosexuality (Lev 20:13).
18. Kidnapping (Ex 21:16).
19. To bear false testimony at a trial (Deut 19:16, 19).
20. Contempt of court (Deut 17:8-13).
John
PhunkD meant that death penalties for rape according to Deut. involves betrothed women, using those verses you just quoted.
I know that... And I don't agree...
John
OK- here's a kicker, for ya's
Went to look up what Matthew Henry had to say in regards to rape- again.
According to him, and his version of the Bible (and boy- are we talkin' about an OLD version of God's Word!)- God is refering to Maidens, whether single OR engaged. Matt Henry
He uses the word ..... Damsel, which translated into our modern English-means any un-married/engaged female.
-charles
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/30/2008 9:51:57 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 168
Joined: 2/17/2008
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I spent time reading the link. It does not make your point.
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 7/1/2008 12:35:00 AM
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bzirk
Posts: 2949
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
John, quoting a lot of scripture doesn't mean that your position lines up with it.
When do you think the death penalty should be applied. When do you think it should not? If this does not line up with the scriptures, please explain why--particularly in regards to rape, which is the topic of this thread.
I think the thing that is missed completely in this discussion is that a Supreme Court ruling of this sort really should have nothing to do with whether the death penalty acts as a 'deterent', whether it lines up with a particular Scripture, whether it will help or harm the pursuit of child rapists, or any other thing that has been discussed here - it should have to do with whether the Constitution of the United States clearly forbids states from imposing such penalties in such cases – and it is clear that it does not. In fact, there is so little support for such a notion that Justice Kennedy was forced to resort to non-Constitutional arguments, as Justice Alito pointed out in his dissent:
The Court today holds that the Eighth Amendment categorically prohibits the imposition of the death penalty for the crime of raping a child. This is so, according to the no matter how young the child, no matter how many times the child is raped, no matter how many children the perpetrator rapes, no matter how sadistic the crime, no matter how much physical or psychological trauma is inflicted, and no matter how heinous the perpetrator’s record may be. The Court provides two reasons for this sweeping conclusion: First, the Court claims to have identified “a national consensus” that the death penalty is never acceptable for the rape of a child; second, the Court concludes, based on its “independent judgment,” that imposing the death penalty for child rape is inconsistent with “ ‘the evolving standards of decency
that mark the progress of a maturing society.’ Because neither of these justifications
is sound, I respectfully dissent.
And so now we have justices resorting to the ‘national consensus’ when making their rulings, a standard that obviously changes from year to year, and is virtually impossible to assess for such issues. Pitiful.
Yep, reading "evolving standards of decency" made me ill. But I love how that precedent can be used to make an argument for the death penalty.
But hey, man, the Consitution is only as good as the people administering it. What's pitiful is how too many Christians have put their faith in the Constitution and the courts over and above the Lord.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 7/2/2008 6:55:57 PM
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19ramman85
Posts: 69
Joined: 4/10/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
I spent time reading the link. It does not make your point.
Ummmmm .......... yes it does.
-charles
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 7/2/2008 11:07:01 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3430
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
John, quoting a lot of scripture doesn't mean that your position lines up with it.
When do you think the death penalty should be applied. When do you think it should not? If this does not line up with the scriptures, please explain why--particularly in regards to rape, which is the topic of this thread.
Given whole of the word of God I don't believe it's wrong for rapist to be put to death...
John
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 7/2/2008 11:11:43 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3430
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 19ramman85
Now that you mentioned it ............. There does seem to be a propensity of those who take the Liberal world view of human rights- as compared to - Religious, view of human rights.
That's because the bible doesn't place the demand that the punishment deter to have validity...
quote:
Every action/word does have consenquences ........... If someone is stupid enough to do the crime- then they are stupid enough to do the time! Which, obviously in my case- does NOT, include the death penalty. Because like I said- the death penalty solves nothing, and is an antiquidated form of punishment.
The punishment doesn't have to solve anything but being a form of punishment... The only real concern is if it's just or not...
John
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 7/3/2008 6:57:30 AM
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19ramman85
Posts: 69
Joined: 4/10/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Can you quote us where that point is?
Asketh, and thou shalst recieveth!
The Punishment of Fornication. (b. c. 1451.)
13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, 14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: 15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: 16 And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; 17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. 18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him; 19 And they shall amerce him in a hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. 20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: 21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you. 22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to a husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel. 23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto a husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. 25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: 26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter: 27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her. 28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. 30 A man shall not take his father's wife, nor discover his father's skirt.
IV. If a damsel were betrothed and not married, she was from under the eye of her intended husband, and therefore she and her chastity were taken under the special protection of the law. 1. If her chastity were violated by her own consent, she was to be put to death, and her adulterer with her,
V. If a damsel not betrothed were thus abused by violence, he that abused her should be fined, the father should have the fine, and, if he and the damsel did consent, he should be bound to marry her,
MH- about 2/3rd's down
dam·sel –noun Literary. a young woman or girl; a maiden, originally one of gentle or noble birth. Ref.
Which also means I got a wee carried away w/ myself in my previous posting.
I apologize!
-charles
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 7/3/2008 10:15:25 AM
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StephK
Posts: 1779
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
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This may not be over just yet:
Jindal releases statement on new error identified in Supreme Court ruling
Posted: July 3, 2008 07:52 AM
BATON ROUGE, LA (WAFB) - Governor Bobby Jindal released a statement Thursday regarding a factual error the Supreme Court made in its decision to overturn the death penalty of Patrick Kennedy, who was convicted of raping a child in Louisiana.
The governor says Supreme Court overlooked the 2006 Act authorizing the death penalty for child rape under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and instead, the court said there was no federal precedence in providing this type of sentence.
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Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 7/3/2008 2:44:57 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1779
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
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DOJ admits overlooking military law in Supreme Court child rape case
Devin Montgomery at 8:30 AM ET
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Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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