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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/4/2008 10:04:36 AM
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DougHorton
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quote:
The only way a gentile could be saved was to have the working of the HS in their hearts…did it happen?
Well, technically, every one of the patriarchs up to Isaac was a Gentile. Before Jacob, there was no "Israel". Before Judah, there was no "Jew".
Moses reminded them of this:
Deuteronomy 26:5 - And thou shalt speak and say before the LORD thy God, A Syrian ready to perish was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there with a few, and became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous...
Let's not forget Rahab and Ruth, whose stories are told specifically to remind the Jews of this truth. Not only were they believers, but the were ancestors of David and therefore Jesus.
The answer is so clear... Yes, yes, yes. Gentiles were saved before the cross. Even a casual reading of scripture reveals this.
< Message edited by DougHorton -- 7/4/2008 5:49:13 PM >
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You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/4/2008 10:12:53 AM
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bob97
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Amen to that Doug...
Bob
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/7/2008 12:03:51 PM
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DaveW
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Rahab and Ruth both were joined physically and spiritually to the people of Israel.
quote:
Does that mean that Gentiles had to join Israel or worship with Israel to receive salvation during the time from Moses to the Cross? While there is nothing (that I know of) that specifically states that, it certainly seems to be implied. THere was no biblical authorization for another sacrificial system. There was no other place than Jerusalem to gather together. When healed of leprosy, Naaman took back soil of Israel to have a piece of the promised land to worship on. Had this been inappropriate Elisha probably would have said so. So in a sense he was also joining with Israel, even though he was a general in the invading army.
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/7/2008 6:17:06 PM
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DougHorton
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The Israelites were saved by their faith, not by the sacrificial system, which was only a shadow of the coming Messiah's sacrifice.
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Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/7/2008 7:20:20 PM
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bob97
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Amen again Doug...
All humanity has been saved under the provisions of the new covenant by the blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Some how I don’t think very many people really understand this fact.
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/7/2008 7:22:59 PM
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bob97
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Let me clarify a point…all meaning…all of those who have been saved. Once again...not all the world.
Bob
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/9/2008 12:43:30 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
The Israelites were saved by their faith, not by the sacrificial system, which was only a shadow of the coming Messiah's sacrifice. But that faith was expressed thru the sacrificial system. What other biblical means of expressing faith in the God of the bible was available?
None.
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/9/2008 1:24:02 PM
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DougHorton
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Nobody is saved through expressing faith, but by having faith.
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Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/9/2008 5:12:01 PM
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p31woman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
Nobody is saved through expressing faith, but by having faith.
That's not what James 2:14-26 asserts.
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So don't let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a Jewish festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat. These are a shadow of things that are coming, but the body is of the Messiah. Colossians 2:16-17
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/9/2008 5:19:38 PM
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DougHorton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: p31woman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doug Horton
Nobody is saved through expressing faith, but by having faith.
That's not what James 2:14-26 asserts.
Yes it is. Living faith is expressed through works, but it is the faith, not the works, which save.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/9/2008 5:28:15 PM
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p31woman
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James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
Hmmm... Seems to me, faith and deeds act in conjunction as far as salvation.
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So don't let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a Jewish festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat. These are a shadow of things that are coming, but the body is of the Messiah. Colossians 2:16-17
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/9/2008 6:12:59 PM
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DougHorton
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That entire passage in James is about demonstrating your faith. Faith that is not demonstrated by works does not save. It simply is not living faith.
It is the faith which saves, not the works. The faith is then demonstrated by the works.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/10/2008 8:14:07 AM
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DaveW
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Faith with out works is dead. Period. If there is no expression, there is no faith.
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We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/10/2008 10:39:01 AM
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DougHorton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Faith with out works is dead. Period. If there is no expression, there is no faith.
Amen
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/10/2008 10:57:36 AM
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bob97
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You say faith brings works but doesn’t it go a little deeper than that?
Faith brings salvation and understanding. Christ then tells us to love God and one another. Isn’t it this love that brings compassion and a desire to continue the works of Christ that result in the works that we do?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/10/2008 1:07:43 PM
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DaveW
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So you agree with me then. So lets get back to the OP's question.quote:
Were the Gentiles expected to join the Jews (God's People) during the time of the Jewish Law?
Were they expected to worship and make sacrifices for sin? What OTHER expression of faith was available to a gentile who believed than joining Israel?
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/10/2008 5:04:28 PM
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DougHorton
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quote:
What OTHER expression of faith was available to a gentile who believed than joining Israel?
We know specifically that Naaman did not join Israel. Moses in-laws and their tribe, the Kennites, did not join Israel. Melchizedek predated Israel as did Job, probably. There may have been converts during the captivity which did not join Israel.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/11/2008 8:47:35 AM
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DaveW
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Naaman took Israeli soil to worship on, and still bowed down to idols.
We have no information that anyone of Moses' inlaws (other than Jethro) ever really followed the God of Israel.
The OP question was concerning the time of the Mosaic covenant up until the New Covenant, not about before Moses.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/11/2008 11:41:21 AM
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DougHorton
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quote:
We have no information that anyone of Moses' inlaws (other than Jethro) ever really followed the God of Israel.
Do you mean that Jethro was considered a priest without worshipers?
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/11/2008 3:25:22 PM
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DaveW
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Probably not, but we are not told those details in the text of scripture. So we really do not know.
We do know that his adult daughters raised sheep, and that could have been his livelyhood.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/11/2008 4:39:41 PM
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DougHorton
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No, we are not told details, but he was described as a priest. Abraham was not called a priest because he was alone. Jethro must have been priest for worshipers.
Still, even if he received his priesthood with nobody to teach him about Elohim, and nobody else to serve as priest for, he was a believer, he was a believer after the giving of the Law, and he did not join himself to Israel nor was there any requirement stated that he should join himself to Israel.
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Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/12/2008 10:10:04 AM
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drfuss
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drfuss: I think something to consider here is when did the law go into effect. The law was given in the wilderness, but was intended for when they were in the land of Canaan. The earliest any of the law could go into effect was when all Israel was circumcised after crossing the Jordan. Much of the law could not really go into effect until they took possession of the land, i.e. when Joshua allowed the warriors from the two and a haft tribes to return home on the other side of Jordan.
Jethro was before all that, so I think he is not a good example in this case.
My question is after Israel was in the land and the law was in effect, how did Gentiles find or worship God?
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/14/2008 6:53:27 PM
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DougHorton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
My question is after Israel was in the land and the law was in effect, how did Gentiles find or worship God?
The answer remains the same. Gentiles before, during and after the Law find God by faith and worship in spirit and truth. They may or may not join the patriarchs/Hebrews/Israel as they wish.
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Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/16/2008 10:46:20 AM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
My question is after Israel was in the land and the law was in effect, how did Gentiles find or worship God?
The answer remains the same. Gentiles before, during and after the Law find God by faith and worship in spirit and truth. They may or may not join the patriarchs/Hebrews/Israel as they wish.
drfuss: Doug, I had agreed with your position up until the study I just conducted on it. This thread was very helpful in my study. I now think that, during the law, the only way of salvation for the Gentiles was (in some way) to join Israel in worshipping God. I am not locked in on this belief, but this appears most likely to me now.
I realize that this is not now important to us Gentile Christians, other than to better understand the Bible. But it may be more important to Jewish Christians.
Over the next few posts, I hope to present some of the scriptures that lead me to change my belief on this issue.
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God's chosen People Israel - 7/16/2008 11:05:03 AM
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drfuss
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Ex. 19: 5,6 - 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Comment: Kingdom of Priest implies Israel was to be the go between for others to come to God.
Duet. 7:6-9 - 6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. 7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: 8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Comment: God set His love on Israel implying that His love for Gentiles was lacking.
LAW PROVIDED FOR CONVERSIONS
drfuss: The law made provisions for Gentiles to join Israel in worshipping God. The law also indicated that a converted Gentile was the same as a natural born Israelite and should be treated as such. There was so much attention in the law paid to Gentiles and their conversion, that it must have been very important and expected.
Ex.12:48,49 - And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Num. 9:14 - 14 And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the passover unto the LORD; according to the ordinance of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.
Num. 15:14-16 - 14 And if a stranger sojourn with you, or whosoever be among you in your generations, and will offer an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; as ye do, so he shall do. 15 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. 16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
Lev. 19:34 - . 34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Isaiah 56:3a, 6,7. - 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Lev. 24:22 - 22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God
drfuss: Other Scriptures indicating that the stranger and the Israelite shall be treated the same: Lev. 17:10-15, 18:26, 19:10,13. Joshua 8:33, 20:9.
< Message edited by drfuss -- 7/16/2008 11:57:12 AM >
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