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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/3/2008 12:33:07 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Actually their "conclusion" is based on theory and guesses, so in itself is a premise.
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A scientific theory is not a mere guess. It is a tested model built up from observation and evidence. The conclusion is not based on the theory. The theory incorporates the conclusion.
So because they test based off of their assumptions, that makes it more than a guess? Their tests are biased based on what they think things were like, which of course they don't really know, so that makes it a guess.
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An estimate is a guess.
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An educated guess based on evidence. Not pulled from a hat.
You say potato, I say potato, a guess is a guess, whether it is edumacated or not.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/3/2008 1:04:44 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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hello,
what's wrong with this syllogism (if anything)
1) Some traits are heritable.
2) Some of these traits confer relative (proportionally favored) reproductive advantage.
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3) These same traits will appear in greater proportions with succesive generations.
Just curious.
It appears to me that there is more to evolution than observation -- there is deductive logic behind it. However, some of the fine points ought to be examined for what they are or are not, sure. Of course, the premises are not certain, but they do seem uncontroversial.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/3/2008 1:25:54 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 724
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
hello,
what's wrong with this syllogism (if anything)
1) Some traits are heritable.
2) Some of these traits confer relative (proportionally favored) reproductive advantage.
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3) These same traits will appear in greater proportions with succesive generations.
Just curious.
It appears to me that there is more to evolution than observation -- there is deductive logic behind it. However, some of the fine points ought to be examined for what they are or are not, sure. Of course, the premises are not certain, but they do seem uncontroversial.
there would have to be, since evolution has never been observed.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/3/2008 2:27:27 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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no, you responded in a general way using a common argument of ID proponents. I don't deny tha the argument is perfectly valid -- it's just irrelevant to what I was asking.
bye
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/3/2008 3:04:07 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
So because they test based off of their assumptions, that makes it more than a guess? Their tests are biased based on what they think things were like, which of course they don't really know, so that makes it a guess.
Testing is how you determine whether a hypothesis is on the right track or not. Of course you have to assume the validity of the hypothesis to test it. That tells you what results to expect. If you don't get the results you expect, you conclude that something is wrong with the hypothesis.
If you continually get the results you do expect through test after test after test, it is rather silly to reject a provisional assessment that the hypothesis is valid.
To refer to this acceptance as only a guess as if we were no closer to the truth than before it was tested is disingenuous.
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An estimate is a guess.
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An educated guess based on evidence. Not pulled from a hat.
You say potato, I say potato, a guess is a guess, whether it is edumacated or not.
Nevertheless, businesses of all kinds rely on estimates and expect them to be reasonably accurate. Why not science? Again to equate a sound estimate extrapolated from data with an uninformed guess out-of-the-blue is simply obfuscation. It is like equating a stockbroker's analysis with answers from a Ouija board.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/3/2008 4:17:20 PM
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Method
Posts: 1134
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
So because they test based off of their assumptions, that makes it more than a guess? Their tests are biased based on what they think things were like, which of course they don't really know, so that makes it a guess.
Can you name one test that is not based on an assumption? When we measure anything there are a pile of assumptions that are needed in order to make that measurement. Just brushing your teeth in the morning requires you to assume a ton things such as the chemical properties of the ingredients in your toothpaste staying the same today as they were yesterday.
In science assumptions are always tested, and they are tested independently of the conclusion. For evolution, it has been observed that the process of evolution produces a nested hierarchy. We then test for that same nested hierarchy between species that we have not observed evolving. Guess what we find? A nested hierarchy, exactly what we would expect IF evolution were true. It is not assumed that evolution occurred in the past as it does not. It is a conclusion based on observation and testable assumptions.
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You say potato, I say potato, a guess is a guess, whether it is edumacated or not.
Perhaps you should be educated in the science before you criticize it.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/3/2008 4:27:46 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
Scientist see the world through the wrong premise, they believe it is billions of years old . . .
That is not a premise. It is a conclusion.
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. . . and that life evolved from some primordial slime.
"Slime"? Really? Poisoning the well again are we?
Science views our reality through the lens of reality, not made up stories.
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There is no fossil evidence of evolution. No chain of fossils showing the gradual change of one species to the other.
False.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/images/hominids2.jpg
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/images/jaws1.gif (reptile to mammal transition)
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Until they find that, evolution is just a theory, one started by men who hate God.
First, evolution will always be a theory no matter how much evidence it amasses. "Theory" is as high as any idea in science gets. Theories are even higher than Laws because Theories explain Laws. Calling evolution a theory is actually a compliment.
Secondly, the theory of evolution is used by christian biologists around the globe.
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A fossil is just the remains of a dead animal, not proof that it evolved into something else.
Hold on. This is what you said previously:
"is no fossil evidence of evolution. No chain of fossils showing the gradual change of one species to the other."
So let me get this straight. In order to evidence evolution one needs to find a chain of fossils showing gradual change, that is unless that chain is found then it really isn't evidence. Did I get that right?
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All these scientist and men are doing is telling you their interpretation of things they see.
Given the evidence in hand, it is the correct interpretation.
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They were not around for billions of years.
Neither were you. But the cosmic microwave background, distant galaxies, fossils, meteorites, and crystals in the Earth have been around for billions of years.
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These men are liars who serve the father of lies.
What are these lies?
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Will we doubt Gods word and ability just as our first parents did?
That's up to you. Would you trust a map that showed a river where none existed? I sure wouldn't. But you, on the other hand, believe it is the Earth's fault for not putting a river where the map shows one to be. For most rational people the map is not the territory, but that doesn't stop creationists from making that very mistake: confusing the map for the territory.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/3/2008 9:44:39 PM
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Godhead
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Now I understand that evolutionist will not allow God into the equation and so any evidence that may support a creator is dismissed as ridiculous, straight out of hand. So in believing in no God, the evolutionist has no moral obligation and can ignore, resist or compromise any or every bit of data or facts presented. Like Darwin, they live in the realm of the imagination. Darwin had an idea, only because He was looking at the animals in the light that there is no God (In his mind) if I was on the Island, my thoughts would have been on the wonderful majesty and wisdom of God's creation.
And evolutionist will see things to try and fit the idea that the world is billions of years old, and that we all evolved from some primordial slime. The idea comes first, an idea that all other facts have to comply to. So evolutionist are making all the facts comply to the ideas of an old earth and evolution. NOT THE SEARCH FOR TRUTH. Any evolutionist who claims to be searching for truth is fooling themselves. they are only looking for something that will prove Darwin to be correct.
_____________________________
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(1Th 4:17)
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/3/2008 10:19:50 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1012
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From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
Now I understand that evolutionist will not allow God into the equation and so any evidence that may support a creator is dismissed as ridiculous, straight out of hand. So in believing in no God, the evolutionist has no moral obligation and can ignore, resist or compromise any or every bit of data or facts presented. Like Darwin, they live in the realm of the imagination. Darwin had an idea, only because He was looking at the animals in the light that there is no God (In his mind) if I was on the Island, my thoughts would have been on the wonderful majesty and wisdom of God's creation.
And evolutionist will see things to try and fit the idea that the world is billions of years old, and that we all evolved from some primordial slime. The idea comes first, an idea that all other facts have to comply to. So evolutionist are making all the facts comply to the ideas of an old earth and evolution. NOT THE SEARCH FOR TRUTH. Any evolutionist who claims to be searching for truth is fooling themselves. they are only looking for something that will prove Darwin to be correct.
This is what is called projection in psychological circles.
Anyway, plenty of people who accept evolution are Christian or otherwise theists.
And even immoral people like me can correctly multiply two numbers together and determine that Ham, Sarfati and Wieland are lia... ahem... in error.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/3/2008 10:53:38 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
Now I understand that evolutionist will not allow God into the equation
Then you understand wrong, for many people who accept evolution are theists who believe in God and pray to God regularly. They have no reason to exclude God from any equation. Your error on this point makes the rest of your post irrelevant.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/4/2008 5:08:16 AM
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WormHeart
Posts: 280
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From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
Now I understand that evolutionist will not allow God into the equation and so any evidence that may support a creator is dismissed as ridiculous, straight out of hand.
Not True!
Here's a study that examines any correlation between healing and prayer. Is that enough for you?
Researchers Look at Prayer and Healing
The study was inconclusive.
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/5/2008 11:25:23 AM
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Carico
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
Or off men who try to use it to destroy your faith.
Scientist see the world through the wrong premise, they believe it is billions of years old and that life evolved from some primordial slime. They view everything they see through that premise, which is going to lead them in the wrong direction because it is false. They try and fit all they find into that premise. They will not see anything else no matter what. These men do not love the Lord and seek mans Glory above His. They are proud men and blinded by Satan. They will totally dismiss evidence for the bible given by God fearing men, while dote on whatever theory pops up into the mind of unbelievers. They are fools who are wise in their own eyes. There is no fossil evidence of evolution. No chain of fossils showing the gradual change of one species to the other. Until they find that, evolution is just a theory, one started by men who hate God. When Christ returns, these men will be put to shame, don't glory in their shame or be enticed by the Devil. A fossil is just the remains of a dead animal, not proof that it evolved into something else. All these scientist and men are doing is telling you their interpretation of things they see. They were not around for billions of years. It is a Christians job to encourage faith not destroy it. These men are liars who serve the father of lies. Will we doubt Gods word and ability just as our first parents did?
Good post.  God said that the wisdom of the world is foolishness in his sight and scientists prove him right better than any group of people. The biggest criteria for scientists is to adopt beliefs that no one in history can verify. Beliefs such as; apes turning into people, a 4.5 billion year earth, a global ice age and giant beasts that roamed the earth before there were any witnesses. So today's science more appropriately fits into the category science fiction than science. But they are funny. 
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/5/2008 11:44:54 AM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
The biggest criteria for scientists is to adopt beliefs that no one in history can verify. Beliefs such as; apes turning into people, a 4.5 billion year earth, a global ice age and giant beasts that roamed the earth before there were any witnesses.
None of these are beliefs. They are well-tested theories derived from observable evidence.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/5/2008 3:34:13 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
In addition, when explanations contradict themselves and the way reality works, they are false. So you haven't yet understood the difference between accepted theories and proven theories.
There is no such thing as a 'proven theory'. Proof is only for math and logic. A scientific theory is always provisional, pending new evidence or a better explanation of old evidence. As it is, the theory of evolution has withstood 150 years of testing and new evidence, with only relatively minor modifications. It is a strong theory, well supported by palaeontological and biological evidence. You would do well to read a basic book on evolutionary biology, so you could improve your understanding of what the theory actually tells us about the world.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/5/2008 4:29:20 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
There is no such thing as a 'proven theory'. Proof is only for math and logic. A scientific theory is always provisional, pending new evidence or a better explanation of old evidence. As it is, the theory of evolution has withstood 150 years of testing and new evidence, with only relatively minor modifications. It is a strong theory, well supported by palaeontological and biological evidence.
The same could be said about Creation, except the only difference here between Evolution and Creation is that 150 years is PUNY compared to the 6000 years of testing and new evidence Creation has withstood and provided!
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/5/2008 5:15:12 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
There is no such thing as a 'proven theory'. Proof is only for math and logic. A scientific theory is always provisional, pending new evidence or a better explanation of old evidence. As it is, the theory of evolution has withstood 150 years of testing and new evidence, with only relatively minor modifications. It is a strong theory, well supported by palaeontological and biological evidence.
The same could be said about Creation, except the only difference here between Evolution and Creation is that 150 years is PUNY compared to the 6000 years of testing and new evidence Creation has withstood and provided!
YEC only 'withstands' the scientific evidence by discarding not just the results of biology, but astronomy, physics, and geology.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/5/2008 6:09:44 PM
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Carico
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
There is no such thing as a 'proven theory'. Proof is only for math and logic. A scientific theory is always provisional, pending new evidence or a better explanation of old evidence. As it is, the theory of evolution has withstood 150 years of testing and new evidence, with only relatively minor modifications. It is a strong theory, well supported by palaeontological and biological evidence.
The same could be said about Creation, except the only difference here between Evolution and Creation is that 150 years is PUNY compared to the 6000 years of testing and new evidence Creation has withstood and provided!
YEC only 'withstands' the scientific evidence by discarding not just the results of biology, but astronomy, physics, and geology.
Since the whole goal of science is to disprove the bible (especially since they don't consider anything in the bible scientific, even the fact that when human flesh and bones decay, they decay into dust), then scientists are not objective. 
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/5/2008 6:33:11 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
There is no such thing as a 'proven theory'. Proof is only for math and logic. A scientific theory is always provisional, pending new evidence or a better explanation of old evidence. As it is, the theory of evolution has withstood 150 years of testing and new evidence, with only relatively minor modifications. It is a strong theory, well supported by palaeontological and biological evidence.
The same could be said about Creation, except the only difference here between Evolution and Creation is that 150 years is PUNY compared to the 6000 years of testing and new evidence Creation has withstood and provided!
Creationism is a relatively recent development, and in that time it has provided no scientific evidence whatsoever.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/5/2008 6:48:15 PM
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drj11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Since the whole goal of science is to disprove the bible (especially since they don't consider anything in the bible scientific, even the fact that when human flesh and bones decay, they decay into dust), then scientists are not objective.
Quotes like this really make me fear for the future of the country. Whats the next step for you? All out war on education and science?
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/5/2008 7:03:57 PM
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Carico
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I have no problem with truthful statements made by scientists. I do have a problem with lies that are made up which no one in history can document. They're made up simply to try to disprove the bible which makes them foolish and irrational. People should be educated by hearing all sides of an issue instead of being brainwashed by only one side as our children are when taught only evolution. So those who are scary are those who are afraid to look at what the bible says.
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Nowhere because it's impossible. When has anyone observed an explosion turning into the earth? 
Nowhere. So sorry, but your statement is false.