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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/1/2008 4:37:57 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7379
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Those millions of heterosexual young people are cohabitating because they apparently haven't been convinced by what their parents and other adults have done with marriage. Marriage got "demeaned" decades ago and it has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuals. Christians have found it so much more convenient to focus on homosexuals than to admit to the rampant adultery among the faithful.
There is a difference between bad human choices (which will continue into perpetuity), and government sanction of bad human choices. Obama would have us sanction bad human choices.
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The DOMA is a cruel joke played on conservatives by the GOP. James Dobson has a greater chance of flying to the moon on a paper airplane than the DOMA has of being enacted.
Um, cow, you do realize that DOMA has already been enacted?
quote:
Unfornuately, McLobby has limited credibility on the marriage issue. That's why he will be less strident (but more honest) than the last GOP Presidential candidate.
Unless he attempted to marry a man in the past, I am not sure how anything he has done thus far would affect his credibility on this issue.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/1/2008 5:05:52 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5204
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
The DOMA is a cruel joke played on conservatives by the GOP. James Dobson has a greater chance of flying to the moon on a paper airplane than the DOMA has of being enacted.
Or so those libs who support the sin of homosexuality would have us believe.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/1/2008 5:50:35 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3919
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Those millions of heterosexual young people are cohabitating because they apparently haven't been convinced by what their parents and other adults have done with marriage. Marriage got "demeaned" decades ago and it has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuals. Christians have found it so much more convenient to focus on homosexuals than to admit to the rampant adultery among the faithful.
There is a difference between bad human choices (which will continue into perpetuity), and government sanction of bad human choices. Obama would have us sanction bad human choices.
A valid point, but homosexuality is not going to be undone nor limited by legislation or Presidential edict. Nor will more people become homosexuals if they can have legal unions. It will make them less "closeted", but that is happening anyway.
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Um, cow, you do realize that DOMA has already been enacted?
Some states (for their own constitutions) have and more will. I was referring to the US constitutional amendment and thought you were. The DOMA is dependent on Congress as it can be undone by congressional act. I really haven't seen any effort by Obama to attack that legislation.
quote:
Unless he attempted to marry a man in the past, I am not sure how anything he has done thus far would affect his credibility on this issue.
A divorced man that left a "crippled" wife is not wise to take up that argument against a married man with no hint of adultery. The Dems gave Bob Dole a free pass because of Bill Clinton's history. That would not happen in today's climate.
< Message edited by cow451 -- 7/1/2008 6:13:23 PM >
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/1/2008 6:27:45 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5204
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Nor will more people become homosexuals if they can have legal unions. It will make them less "closeted", but that is happening anyway.
I think that point could be argued. When something becomes acceptable or even popular (even really bad hehavour) it seems to begin to grow expotentially.
Such as gangs, gansta rap, acting up in school, teen pregnancy, etc.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/1/2008 6:41:08 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7379
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
A valid point, but homosexuality is not going to be undone nor limited by legislation or Presidential edict. Nor will more people become homosexuals if they can have legal unions. It will make them less "closeted", but that is happening anyway.
I don't think that gay marriage will necessarily cause more homosexuality, though I think those who aren't sure (particularly women) will be more inclined to experiment based on greater public acceptance.
Either way, my primary concern has to do with what marriage is and isn't.
quote:
Some states (for their own constitutions) have and more will. I was referring to the US constitutional amendment and thought you were. The DOMA is dependent on Congress as it can be undone by congressional act. I really haven't seen any effort by Obama to attack that legislation.
Sorry for the confusion - the Amendment is referred to as the Federal Marraige Amendment (FMA) - DOMA keeps states that recognize marriages from forcing other states to do so. Obama opposed this measure.
quote:
A divorced man that left a "crippled" wife is not wise to take up that argument against a married man with no hint of adultery. The Dems gave Bob Dole a free pass because of Bill Clinton's history. That would not happen in today's climate.
Actually, at this point John has been married to Cindy longer than Barak has been married to Michelle. And McCain admits his past mistakes. Hardly the basis for preventing him from discussing what may prove to be a significant issue in the campaign. And there is no evidence that divored voters (of which there are a few) are any more upportive of gay marriage than non-divorced voters. I hardly can imagine Barak saying, "Senator McCain you have been divorced, so you can't oppose gay marriage." since Barak doesn't appear to be that illogical.
And I hardly think voters who have overwhelmingly opposed gay marriage in virtually every state in the union are going to care about the marital status of the person who strongly supports it.
< Message edited by Jhud -- 7/1/2008 6:47:30 PM >
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/1/2008 10:03:02 PM
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henny
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
A divorced man that left a "crippled" wife is not wise to take up that argument against a married man with no hint of adultery.
Marriage is for one man and one woman.......at a time.
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/1/2008 10:31:58 PM
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thomas2008
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Again...We as Christians are missing the boat if we think that just chatting about the problems is going to fix it, we're badly mistaken. How many of us are actually making our voices heard?
Last Sunday my pastor preached against the same sex marriage ruling. He said in Canada there was a pastor who was arrested for preach such a sermon. Just the pastor, why didn't the congregation take the same stand? Would any of us here in the United States take the same stand, or would we sit back in our church seat and do nothing? Because that is what is happening here in America, not just with the gay marriage issue, but all the issues that are going up against God's Word. When are we going to stop taking it like a slap in the face?
If gay marriage does eventually become legal (because I believe it will) nationwide who deserves the blame? The courts? Congress? State governments? We can point our fingers all we want, but the reality is that we have three more pointing right back at us. We preach against gay marriage on Sunday, but come Monday we leave it where we found it.
So what about Obama on gay rights? What about McCain? Instead of putting our faith in McCain who is just a mere man, we need to be putting faith, prayer, fasting to our great big God and pray for his guidance. His wisdom.
Again, sitting here at Crosswalk talking about the issues a good, we need to keep each other informed and encouraged, but is this as far as it goes? We have a mission field beyond the world wide web, beyond the church walls. Its harvest time folks.
_____________________________
Warmest Regards,
Thomas Winters
quote:
"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence -- it is force." - George Washington
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/1/2008 11:36:54 PM
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Sophie11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Gay marriage deteriorates all marriage by taking away from the importance of it, the meaning of it. Marriage itself is already becoming meaningless to many (mostly younger) folks in this country as it is, and gay marriage does no more than cause even greater harm.
Those millions of heterosexual young people are cohabitating because they apparently haven't been convinced by what their parents and other adults have done with marriage. Marriage got "demeaned" decades ago and it has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuals. Christians have found it so much more convenient to focus on homosexuals than to admit to the rampant adultery among the faithful.
I have not denied that marriage has been messed up for a while. What I wish is that we wouldn't say "oh well, what's the use anymore" when something else comes along that will cause further damage.
If my car is full of dents and scratches and I wish to have it fixed I do not then proceed to drive through a briar patch and say "well it was already scratched", because in the end it will only means more trouble to fix it.
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 12:09:17 AM
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todd_t
Posts: 1316
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: The North Woods
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quote:
is there any reason why someone considers marriage to be a God given institution should support Obama?
I do not see the examples you cited as being particularly far-left, especially #2.
If anything, I see them as reactionary bleating from Republicans who are wasting the country's time on non-issues (such as the definition of marriage, and flag-burning amendments) when there are literally hundreds of bigger fish to fry in terms of national priorities (e.g. energy, Iraq, the economy, port and border security, etc) that impact people daily.
Getting the heebie-jeebies (and that's all the right's position against gay marriage is based upon) over two women marrying in CA truly borders on get-a-life territory.
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 12:13:57 AM
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todd_t
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From: The North Woods
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quote:
If Obama gets to do what he intends, homosexual marriages will be ensconced in federal law.
This is misinformation.
Give me one direct quote of Obama endorsing national gay marriage rights; to my knowledge, he's opposed to it, but does support civil unions.
quote:
And a gay marriage is by definition a bad marriage, so giving them a government sanction will only deteriorate marriage further.
Jack, who are you to condemn the relationship between two same-sex persons who are committed to one another?
< Message edited by todd_t -- 7/2/2008 12:22:48 AM >
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 1:19:48 AM
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henny
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From: MN
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There's nothing wrong with condemning gay marriage, if someone is oppossed to it.
That's people's right.
I do think if politicians are going to condemn it, though, they should have a clear and concise reasoning laid out as to why they are condemning it, and I rarely see any of the politicians oppossed to it do this. They merely state their opposition as if it is self-evident.
I really don't think they need to have a compeling case against it right now, though, just because there is a majority of people in this country who are oppossed to gay marriage -so they simply heed this sentiment knowing that they aren't going to be pressed to give a good reason, or at least by the voters, anyway.
McCain especially, is no exception.
He parrots the party line, when asked, and repeats stuff about the "sanctity of marriage" (although I can't question his commitment on this point. Clearly his zeal for the sanctity of marriage is so great that it compelled him to engage in it twice. That's twice the sanctity of your normal marriage for one low, low price!) and marriage being between 1 man and 1 woman, but again I really don't get the sense from anything he's said that it's an issue he feels strongly about. He clearly loathes speaking about it, and I really think he's just cow towing to the party line out of fear of offending conservatives.
All someone has to do is ask him "yes, but why exactly?" and I guarantee you he'd put his foot in his mouth.
< Message edited by henny -- 7/2/2008 1:27:19 AM >
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 1:49:59 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7379
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From: Lake Wobegon
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Henny -
This is a thread about Obama's views on gay rights - if you want to start a thread on McCain's views, feel free to do so - in the meantime, your tu quoque response demonstrate your complete and utter inability to defend Obama's ultra-left wing views on gay marriage.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 1:51:01 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7379
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
Again, sitting here at Crosswalk talking about the issues a good, we need to keep each other informed and encouraged, but is this as far as it goes? We have a mission field beyond the world wide web, beyond the church walls. Its harvest time folks.
Thomas, no one is forcing you to participate in this discussion.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 1:59:12 AM
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henny
Posts: 1207
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From: MN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Henny -
This is a thread about Obama's views on gay rights - if you want to start a thread on McCain's views, feel free to do so - in the meantime, your tu quoque response demonstrate your complete and utter inability to defend Obama's ultra-left wing views on gay marriage.
You were the one who said:
quote:
quote:
Same thing with McCain, and Bush even, I doubt either of them would be against gay marriage on principle alone if they didn't see it as politically beneficial for them to be against it.
As much as I appreciate the cynicism, there is really no basis for this belief.
I'm simply giving you the basis for my "cynicism."
But I will kindly heed your request and start a seperate thread on McCain and gay rights.
In regards to Obama, though, as I said before I may not agree with him 100%, but I admire his straightforwardness.
< Message edited by henny -- 7/2/2008 2:28:44 AM >
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 2:02:26 AM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 8754
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
is there any reason why someone considers marraige to be a God given institution should support Obama?
I don't see why anyone, aside from the mentally insane, would support Ollama.
But America is proving to be quite daft.
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The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 2:02:29 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7379
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
I do not see the examples you cited as being particularly far-left, especially #2.
If anything, I see them as reactionary bleating from Republicans who are wasting the country's time on non-issues (such as the definition of marriage, and flag-burning amendments) when there are literally hundreds of bigger fish to fry in terms of national priorities (e.g. energy, Iraq, the economy, port and border security, etc) that impact people daily.
Getting the heebie-jeebies (and that's all the right's position against gay marriage is based upon) over two women marrying in CA truly borders on get-a-life territory.
Obama's views are further left on this issue than any presidential candidate we have ever had run for office - Bill Clinton was liberal - Obama is a left wing visionary. As his wife so eloquently put it, he wants to completely change the nature of our society on this issue, to close "the gap between the world as it is and the world as it should be".
quote:
Give me one direct quote of Obama endorsing national gay marriage rights; to my knowledge, he's opposed to it, but does support civil unions.
He opposed (and opposes) DOMA, he supported the California Supreme courts ruling, and he opposes amending the CA constitution - he is for gay marriage, and if you think otherwise, you will believe anything Obama tells you, and there is little logic, reason, or evidence that will change your mind.
quote:
Jack, who are you to condemn the relationship between two same-sex persons who are committed to one another?
I'm not condemning, simply pointing out that a gay 'marriage' can never fulfill the purpose of marriage, and thus can never be a good marriage - and of course as a Christian I know God does condemn such perversity of His design for marriage.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 7:37:57 AM
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thomas2008
Posts: 307
Joined: 9/10/2007
From: Potterville, Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Again, sitting here at Crosswalk talking about the issues a good, we need to keep each other informed and encouraged, but is this as far as it goes? We have a mission field beyond the world wide web, beyond the church walls. Its harvest time folks.
Thomas, no one is forcing you to participate in this discussion.
Okay, I am not in objection to participating in this discussion here. My point is, is that all that we are doing? Are we doing all that we can, or are we doing all that we are willing to do?
_____________________________
Warmest Regards,
Thomas Winters
quote:
"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence -- it is force." - George Washington
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 8:37:08 AM
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PhunkD
Posts: 208
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrapeApe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
is there any reason why someone considers marraige to be a God given institution should support Obama?
I don't see why anyone, aside from the mentally insane, would support Ollama.
But America is proving to be quite daft.
Yes. The majority of Americans are insane.
Or tired of a pointless war and a ruined economy.
Do you really think I am going to let my country continue to get wrecked just so to make it slightly harder for two dudes to marry? How insane is that?
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 9:58:43 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7379
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
Okay, I am not in objection to participating in this discussion here. My point is, is that all that we are doing? Are we doing all that we can, or are we doing all that we are willing to do?
What are you doing?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 10:06:00 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7379
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
Yes. The majority of Americans are insane.
Or tired of a pointless war and a ruined economy.
Do you really think I am going to let my country continue to get wrecked just so to make it slightly harder for two dudes to marry? How insane is that?
Well, I don't think Obama, whatever his promised miracle cures, will change the price of fuel or make property values suddenly regain their previously over-inflated value.
He will apparently however appoint justices that will rubber stamp the decision of the California Supreme court, and as a Christian I am concerned about the moral direction of our country. Wars will end, and the economy will go through it's inevitable cycles - but the moral nature of this country is inevitably harmed when we allow it to slide ever downward through repeated blows to the family, to marriage, and to the church.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 12:36:48 PM
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SuspenseWriter
Posts: 381
Joined: 2/22/2008
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Exactly. But young liberal "Christians"--willfully ignorant of history, and only in love with their own pocketbooks to the exclusion of Biblical precepts--will be the ones to propel this smooth-talking yahoo into the White House. I hope they enjoy the ride. I won't.
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writer of suspense...obviously!
www.johnrobinsonbooks.com
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