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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 1:50:35 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1084
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From: The North Woods
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quote:
Obama's views are further left on this issue than any presidential candidate we have ever had run for office
Funny, I thought that was the story on John Kerry. Oh, silly me!
I just can't keep these "most liberal presidential candidates in human history" straight as they change every four years.
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[Obama] opposed (and opposes) DOMA, he supported the California Supreme courts ruling, and he opposes amending the CA constitution
Show me the direct quotes from Obama supporting these claims. Not hearsay, direct quotes.
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and of course as a Christian I know God does condemn such perversity of His design for marriage.
This is why you and I will never agree on this issue.
At its core, marriage is a socio-economic contract, which is why lawyers oversee divorces instead of church officials.
However, if is it your position that marriage springs from God, are non-Christian marriages (Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Non-religious, et al) then invalid?
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 2:35:55 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7389
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Funny, I thought that was the story on John Kerry. Oh, silly me!
I just can't keep these "most liberal presidential candidates in human history" straight as they change every four years.
Hey, I was as flummoxed as you that the Dems could come up with a more liberal candidate than Kerry - but somehow they managed it.
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Show me the direct quotes from Obama supporting these claims. Not hearsay, direct quotes.
Well, conveniently, he just sent a letter to the Alice B. Toklas LGBT Democratic Club:
As the Democratic nominee for President, I am proud to join with and support the LGBT community in an effort to set our nation on a course that recognizes LGBT Americans with full equality under the law. That is why I support extending fully equal rights and benefits to same sex couples under both state and federal law. That is why I support repealing the Defense of Marriage Act and the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy, and the passage of laws to protect LGBT Americans from hate crimes and employment discrimination. And that is why I oppose the divisive and discriminatory efforts to amend the California Constitution, and similar efforts to amend the U.S. Constitution or those of other states.
For too long. issues of LGBT rights have been exploited by those seeking to divide us. It's time to move beyond polarization and live up to our founding promise of equality by treating all our citizens with dignity and respect. This is no less than a core issue about who we are as Democrats and as Americans.
Finally, I want to congratulate all of you who have shown your love for each other by getting married these last few weeks. My thanks again to the Alice B. Toklas LGBT Democratic Club for allowing me to be a part of today's celebration. I look forward to working with you in the coming months and years, and I wish you all continued success.
'nuff aid about that...
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This is why you and I will never agree on this issue.
Of course, which is why I directed the OP at Christians; I didn’t expect materialists to care either way.
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At its core, marriage is a socio-economic contract, which is why lawyers oversee divorces instead of church officials.
It’s actually both social and spiritual, as well as a biological derivation.
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However, if is it your position that marriage springs from God, are non-Christian marriages (Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Non-religious, et al) then invalid?
No, God created marriage for humans, not a specific religious group.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 2:49:57 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1084
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: The North Woods
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quote:
Hey, I was as flummoxed as you that the Dems could come up with a more liberal candidate than Kerry - but somehow they managed it.
As I'm sure they will--in your mind--continue to do so every four years going forward.
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As the Democratic nominee for President, I am proud to join with and support the LGBT community in an effort to set our nation on a course that recognizes LGBT Americans with full equality under the law. That is why I support extending fully equal rights and benefits to same sex couples under both state and federal law.
Obama is talking civil unions here.
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That is why I support repealing the Defense of Marriage Act and the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy, and the passage of laws to protect LGBT Americans from hate crimes and employment discrimination.
Okay, fair enough. Thank you for the quote. I also agree with him.
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And that is why I oppose the divisive and discriminatory efforts to amend the California Constitution, and similar efforts to amend the U.S. Constitution or those of other states.
Ibid.
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Of course, which is why I directed the OP at Christians.
Or at least your own definition of the term, apparently.
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No, God created marriage for humans, not a specific religious group.
I just cannot agree - like concepts of human liberty, marriage is a concept drawn up and overseen by people.
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 2:59:57 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7389
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As I'm sure they will--in your mind--continue to do so every four years going forward.
Actually, I thought Hillary was less liberal than Kerry.
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Okay, fair enough. Thank you for the quote. I also agree with him.
Which is your prerogative.
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Or at least your own definition of the term, apparently.
I think I have a pretty standard definition of what it means to be a Christian. What is your definition?
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I just cannot agree - like concepts of human liberty, marriage is a concept drawn up and overseen by people.
Of course, which is the typical materialist perspective – and incidentally means that marriage has no objective meaning, simply whatever the majority (or courts, in this case) say it is.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 3:51:05 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1084
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From: The North Woods
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quote:
I think I have a pretty standard definition of what it means to be a Christian. What is your definition?
Fundamentally, a faith in Christ and trying to do one's best to reflect his teachings - while also being wary of archaic Biblical passages which can be taken (and spun) in a number of ways. In other words, I am not a literalist.
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Of course, which is the typical materialist perspective – and incidentally means that marriage has no objective meaning, simply whatever the majority (or courts, in this case) say it is.
I think you're confusing the term "materialist" with "humanist."
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 4:45:49 PM
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Jhud
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Fundamentally, a faith in Christ and trying to do one's best to reflect his teachings - while also being wary of archaic Biblical passages which can be taken (and spun) in a number of ways. In other words, I am not a literalist.
I would certainly consider the first part a legitimate definition - though I am not sure how one would, "reflect His teachings" if there is no certain understanding of them.
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I think you're confusing the term "materialist" with "humanist."
No, I mean materialist - one who doesn't consider anything but material existence to be real.
< Message edited by Jhud -- 7/2/2008 5:10:20 PM >
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 4:57:51 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
Or tired of a pointless war and a ruined economy.
Obama is going to change this?
Hah.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
No, God created marriage for humans, not a specific religious group.
More specifically, male and female only.
_____________________________
Cynicism is an unpleasant way of saying the truth.
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 8:43:49 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 179
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrapeApe
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
Or tired of a pointless war and a ruined economy.
Obama is going to change this?
Hah.
He has as far better chance of changing this than McCain has for changing gay rights. At the very least, he isn't sticking to a failed plan.
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 8:47:59 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1084
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From: The North Woods
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quote:
No, I mean materialist - one who doesn't consider anything but material existence to be real.
If you think that's what I am, Jack, you could not possibly be more wrong.
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 9:49:06 PM
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lightshineon
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Well his church believes it. It is wrong, but hey, go head make light on his stance. The country is going to hell in a hand basket anyway.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 11:22:48 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
A valid point, but homosexuality is not going to be undone nor limited by legislation or Presidential edict. Nor will more people become homosexuals if they can have legal unions. It will make them less "closeted", but that is happening anyway.
The(God ordained) authority says it's ok to sin and you don't believe that will lead to more sin? Really?
John
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 11:29:24 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
Jack, who are you to condemn the relationship between two same-sex persons who are committed to one another?
Those in the same-sex relationship condemn themselves by their actions...
Proverbs 3:33 The curse of the Lord is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just.
John
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/2/2008 11:40:58 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3836
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
Fundamentally, a faith in Christ and trying to do one's best to reflect his teachings - while also being wary of archaic Biblical passages which can be taken (and spun) in a number of ways. In other words, I am not a literalist.
I don't think anyone can spin the word of God hard enoughfor it to support homosexual couples... Interesting that one speaks of Christ and His word being archaic since that would include He being the same...
John
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/3/2008 4:58:20 AM
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saved9201
Posts: 715
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Obama's actual stance on homosexual rights has been fairly vague (like many of his stances) until this last week. On June 26th, his wife Michelle outlined his views on homosexual 'rights'. What she detailed:
Has a career-long devotion to adancing the rights of Lesbian, Gay, and Transgender people.
Supported Lawrence v. Texas (Striking down sodomy laws)
Wants gay rights to be recognized in terms of housing, adoption, workplace, the military, and marraige
Opposes state and federal amendments recognizing marraige as being between a man and a woman.
Opposes DOMA (Federal Defense of Marraige Act)
Opposes Don't Ask, Don't Tell in the military.
I would say this puts him on the very far left in terms of this issue - is there any reason why someone considers marraige to be a God given institution should support Obama?
Of course I don't agree with his position on this issue, but last I checked, it's not much different than the current democratic party line on homosexual rights. Hillary Clinton shared similar views on this issue. You can easily say he's "far" left on this issue compared to past presidential candidates because past presidential candidates haven't had to deal with as aggressive a gay movement as we have today. They're pushing the envelope with this marriage thing, and I don't think they'll be satisfied with "civil unions" or anything less than full nationwide legal acceptance of their decadent lifestyle.
Just an aside, Obama recently announced he would continue with, and try to expand Bush's faith based initiatives in an attempt to reach out to evangelical Christians. The problem whenever a democrat tries to "reach out" to evangelicals is that there are still those two huge elephants in the room, gay rights and abortion. They have a difficult time biblically reconciling the democratic party position on either of these issues to bible believing Christians. Don't get me wrong, the GOP has taken what I consider non-biblical stances as well (not the time or place to get into specifics), but none like these two.
As another aside, I've always contended the homosexual movement has always tried to convince folks that their numbers are greater than what they really are in an attempt to garner more political consideration. I understand politics enough to know that if the contituency is large enough, then somebody has to go after their vote, albeit surreptitiously, despite a so-called moral dilemma. I just think this is a group both parties, particularly the democrats, would be wise to do a "cost / benefit" analysis on to see if it's worth the effort to aggressively court this politically divisive, increasingly demanding and radical group.
In the end, you have to ask yourself the question, which person is just quoting the party line, and which is committed to proactively pushing or opposing the gay agenda? In other words, is Obama going to actively pursue giving homosexual couples the same full legal rights as heterosexual couples? Is McCain going to actively oppose this and push for a sanctity of marriage law?
We'll see how this unfolds.
- Julius
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/3/2008 10:21:08 AM
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lightshineon
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Julius hello, well I know you being a retired Military man, you most likely do approve of gay rights. The don't ask don't tell policy was and is a disaster. There were cases of people being murdered when fellow soilders found out the truth about someones sexual orentation. That is a horriable thing, that people could hate that much. The fact is Bill Clinton put this in action, not, served in the Military, himself, and could not gage soldiers reaction serving with, or, serving under a superior who is a homosexual. This is the same with Obama, his church ( former) for twenty years endorsed gay rights, gay ministers, even gay small groups. He has sat under teaching, in a church for years who practiced abomanation against God's word. It is ingrained in him, his head and his heart, by his religon. We that do not take the Bible out of context, know the truth about God's word and this issue. You know Obama will go as left as he can with this issue, because it is what he believes. It will result in churches accepting open homosexuality, our children thinking it is ok. I am drawing a comparesion to the ignorance of Bill Clinton on this issue not knowing what the results would be for the Military, and Obama, not being taught, or not wanting to know the truth taught in his church. Both are equally going to have a snowball effect in our society and churches.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/3/2008 3:29:11 PM
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saved9201
Posts: 715
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quote:
Julius hello, well I know you being a retired Military man, you most likely do approve of gay rights.
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/3/2008 11:36:05 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 179
Joined: 2/17/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Julius hello, well I know you being a retired Military man, you most likely do approve of gay rights. The don't ask don't tell policy was and is a disaster. There were cases of people being murdered when fellow soilders found out the truth about someones sexual orentation. That is a horriable thing, that people could hate that much. The fact is Bill Clinton put this in action, not, served in the Military, himself, and could not gage soldiers reaction serving with, or, serving under a superior who is a homosexual. This is the same with Obama, his church ( former) for twenty years endorsed gay rights, gay ministers, even gay small groups. He has sat under teaching, in a church for years who practiced abomanation against God's word. It is ingrained in him, his head and his heart, by his religon. We that do not take the Bible out of context, know the truth about God's word and this issue. You know Obama will go as left as he can with this issue, because it is what he believes. It will result in churches accepting open homosexuality, our children thinking it is ok. I am drawing a comparesion to the ignorance of Bill Clinton on this issue not knowing what the results would be for the Military, and Obama, not being taught, or not wanting to know the truth taught in his church. Both are equally going to have a snowball effect in our society and churches.
Do you really think that churches are that easily influenced?
And, for that matter, that our military has such little self control?
If so, electing the right president won't even begin to solve our problems.
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/4/2008 12:01:46 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3425
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Yes, I believe our churches are easily influenced, look at the acceptance of sin by Christians in the voting process. Yes, the military will not stand for a gay leader. I know this for a fact. There has been more than one hate crime with don't ask don't tell. Yes, electing the right president might help. The word of God says righteousness exalts a nation.
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ORIGINAL: PhunkD
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Julius hello, well I know you being a retired Military man, you most likely do approve of gay rights. The don't ask don't tell policy was and is a disaster. There were cases of people being murdered when fellow soilders found out the truth about someones sexual orentation. That is a horriable thing, that people could hate that much. The fact is Bill Clinton put this in action, not, served in the Military, himself, and could not gage soldiers reaction serving with, or, serving under a superior who is a homosexual. This is the same with Obama, his church ( former) for twenty years endorsed gay rights, gay ministers, even gay small groups. He has sat under teaching, in a church for years who practiced abomanation against God's word. It is ingrained in him, his head and his heart, by his religon. We that do not take the Bible out of context, know the truth about God's word and this issue. You know Obama will go as left as he can with this issue, because it is what he believes. It will result in churches accepting open homosexuality, our children thinking it is ok. I am drawing a comparesion to the ignorance of Bill Clinton on this issue not knowing what the results would be for the Military, and Obama, not being taught, or not wanting to know the truth taught in his church. Both are equally going to have a snowball effect in our society and churches.
Do you really think that churches are that easily influenced?
And, for that matter, that our military has such little self control?
If so, electing the right president won't even begin to solve our problems.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/4/2008 12:08:33 AM
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PhunkD
Posts: 179
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I cannot believe that you would denigrate our military so much.
If we cannot trust our soldiers not to kill their commanding officers and brothers-in-arms, how can they possibly function together in combat?
As for the church, once upon a time, we would rather die than compromise our faith. Now, you say that we would compromise just because a president believes something different?
Maybe in your church. Certainly not mine. Frankly, any church that could be so easily influenced is not really a church.
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/4/2008 12:14:21 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3425
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Well how many Christians vote for a president that goes against Christian doctrine. There have been hate crimes against gays in the military. Notice my husbands uniform in avatar, he, and others would not serve under a gay man. The way things are. How many churches, openly embrace practicing homosexuals? My husband an officer himself, will tell you sometimes in war, men have tried to kill their commanding officers.
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ORIGINAL: PhunkD
I cannot believe that you would denigrate our military so much.
If we cannot trust our soldiers not to kill their commanding officers and brothers-in-arms, how can they possibly function together in combat?
As for the church, once upon a time, we would rather die than compromise our faith. Now, you say that we would compromise just because a president believes something different?
Maybe in your church. Certainly not mine. Frankly, any church that could be so easily influenced is not really a church.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/4/2008 12:26:58 AM
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PhunkD
Posts: 179
Joined: 2/17/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Well how many Christians vote for a president that goes against Christian doctrine. There have been hate crimes against gays in the military. Notice my husbands uniform in avatar, he, and others would not serve under a gay man. The way things are. How many churches, openly embrace practicing homosexuals? My husband an officer himself, will tell you sometimes in war, men have tried to kill their commanding officers.
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
I cannot believe that you would denigrate our military so much.
If we cannot trust our soldiers not to kill their commanding officers and brothers-in-arms, how can they possibly function together in combat?
As for the church, once upon a time, we would rather die than compromise our faith. Now, you say that we would compromise just because a president believes something different?
Maybe in your church. Certainly not mine. Frankly, any church that could be so easily influenced is not really a church.
So you are saying that your husband would break his oaths and commit murder if he were placed under a gay officer?
I feel sorry for you.
None of my friends that serve, nor the veterans I have encountered as a chaplain, have so quickly and thoughtlessly surrendered their honor.
If you would like people to continue to respect those who serve, you would be wise to stop speaking of your husband this way.
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/4/2008 12:37:13 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3425
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No, I did not say my husband ever killed or tried to kill anyone. My husband is a Christian a man of honor, how dare you say something such as this. I am saying what has happened. You are bearing false witness, get it right son.
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Well how many Christians vote for a president that goes against Christian doctrine. There have been hate crimes against gays in the military. Notice my husbands uniform in avatar, he, and others would not serve under a gay man. The way things are. How many churches, openly embrace practicing homosexuals? My husband an officer himself, will tell you sometimes in war, men have tried to kill their commanding officers.
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
I cannot believe that you would denigrate our military so much.
If we cannot trust our soldiers not to kill their commanding officers and brothers-in-arms, how can they possibly function together in combat?
As for the church, once upon a time, we would rather die than compromise our faith. Now, you say that we would compromise just because a president believes something different?
Maybe in your church. Certainly not mine. Frankly, any church that could be so easily influenced is not really a church.
So you are saying that your husband would break his oaths and commit murder if he were placed under a gay officer?
I feel sorry for you.
None of my friends that serve, nor the veterans I have encountered as a chaplain, have so quickly and thoughtlessly surrendered their honor.
If you would like people to continue to respect those who serve, you would be wise to stop speaking of your husband this way.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/4/2008 12:43:24 AM
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PhunkD
Posts: 179
Joined: 2/17/2008
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quote:
Notice my husbands uniform in avatar, he, and others would not serve under a gay man.
At the very least, this demonstrates that your husband would break his oath.
Your statement about the people killing their officers implied that this is the way that soldiers would handle a gay officer.
So, while your husband would not do this, you believe that other soldiers would do this, is that right?
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/4/2008 12:54:21 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3425
Joined: 4/11/2005
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No punked, quit trying to make this personal. Yes I know officers who in war were almost killed by their own men. Have you seen anything about hate crimes against gays in the military? are you just spouting off at the mouth. And gay men have no place in the military. Please do not feel sorry for me, feel sorry for you lack of understanding life, and the way things are. Let this go, because you do not know what you are talking about.
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
quote:
Notice my husbands uniform in avatar, he, and others would not serve under a gay man.
At the very least, this demonstrates that your husband would break his oath.
Your statement about the people killing their officers implied that this is the way that soldiers would handle a gay officer.
So, while your husband would not do this, you believe that other soldiers would do this, is that right?
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Obama on Gay Rights - 7/4/2008 1:00:17 AM
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PhunkD
Posts: 179
Joined: 2/17/2008
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I am trying to understand what you are talking about.
Would do you believe your husband would do if don't ask/don't tell were repealed and he had to serve under a gay man?
What do you think that other soldiers would do?
With all due respect, it is not up to the wife of an officer to decide who can serve. Ultimately, it is up to the commander-in-chief.
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