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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/14/2008 3:06:17 AM
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clayton994
Posts: 72
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Bendigo, Australia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Luke 6:29
If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.
So then you are saying that you would without resistance let drug crazed thugs rape your wife, children, possibly even you, and then kill you without resistance.
Interesting.
Thanks
RC
RC, these words came from Jesus, not 1love1God1way. What would your interpretation of Jesus words in Luke 6:29 be?
Cheers,
Clayton.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/14/2008 11:11:58 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5024
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
RC, these words came from Jesus, not 1love1God1way. What would your interpretation of Jesus words in Luke 6:29 be?
My interpretation would not be to extrapolate the slapping on the cheek to permitting someone to rape and murder my wife, children or myself..
As I said a man is told in Scripture to be willing to lay down his life for his wilfe and family.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/14/2008 11:15:42 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5024
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
I never said otherwise. If you go up a few posts, you'll see that I said I would defend my family.
When I posted that Scripture, it was in response to a non-life-threatening situation.
Ok, where would you draw the line to determine when a situation is life threatening.
When the thugs are beating in your door?
When they have broken in your house?
When they stick a gun in your face?
When you see them coming out of your neighbor's house and you think they might be headed towards yours?
or just when?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/14/2008 1:08:11 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2005
Joined: 5/16/2005
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I don't know, RC. I didn't say I have made the easiest choice. But, I feel if that time ever came, God would be with me and guide me and protect me, and I would know what I would have to do.
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/14/2008 1:32:42 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1991
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Even though I walk in the dark valley I fear no evil; for you (my trusty shotgun) are at my side. With your buckshot and well cleaned barrels that give me courage. 
What? That's supposed to refer to God and not my gun where I have put all my faith for my security?
I'd rather have a good alarm system. One, it deters thieves from trying to break in to begin with and it automatically summons the police without even having to dial 911 EVEN IF I'M NOT HOME. Plus I don't have to worry about my kids shooting themselves with it.
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/14/2008 2:35:57 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1153
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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Personally, I thank GOD that I have the RIGHT and ABILITY to own and protect myself, and my family with a firearm. Glock 26 to be exact. If God had sent me to live somewhere other than the state I do now (not country...I am talking about STATE) I would not have that ability/right. Because of God I am here and able to defend myself if the need ever arises. Because of GOD, I had the ability and finances to purchase my sidearm. Because of GOD, I was able to get the training to carry this side arm with me lawfully.
I FULLY give credit to where credit is due. If God did not want me to have this sidearm, I would not have it. And I know, if I ever need to defend myself, it will be because God enabled me to have this weapon to do so at such a time. THIS is how God is "protecting" me.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/14/2008 4:45:45 PM
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Apparition
Posts: 27
Joined: 4/14/2008
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Well.. "For the wages of sin is death..."
Stealing is definitely a sin.. keeping in mind that we are all sinners.
I feel like a bad Christian today since I don't have my Bible with me, but off the top of my head when bringing up the passage in luke to turn the other cheek and if a man asks for your cloak then also give him your tunic, I thought I remembered that passage dealing more to if you were being taken to court.. if a man is suing you for your cloak, then don't fight it and just give him what he asks and then some. if you did someone else wrong and they slap you in the face, then also turn the other cheek.
I don't think it means to let anyone do what they want to you..
Judge not or you too shall also be judged.. for in the measure that you judge, your father will also judge you.. or something along those lines.
I think to judge Mr. Horn this harshly when we aren't very aware of all the facts is not the best course of action for us. I think it might have been a better course of action for him to spare the 2 men's lives, but I certainly will not condemn him as a murderer either, and I also feel that if he felt threatened then he had every right to do what he did. The death of men involved in breaking into another's house and stealing his possessions are NOT innocent. With that said, I pray that God will have mercy on ALL involved, and for every child of God, as we all have sinned and fall short of His glory.
Let this not be a divisive issue.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/14/2008 5:30:20 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5824
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
But Jesus didn't give us that example in His crucifixion, did He?
Are you saying that allowing thugs to get away with murder, rape, and theft of a neighbor without challenge or an attempt to stop them is on par with Jesus willingly laying down His life to save those who repent of sin and receive His offer of eternal life?
That's bizarre on a whole new level!
Just curious but which neoghbor of Mr Horn was murdered or raped? Or even physically assaulted?
Mr. Horn knew that how?
My point being that he did not know and was therefore not justified in the use of force to such an extent that he murdered two people by shooting them in the back
Generally the word "murder" is reserved for someone that kills another for personal gain. What do you suppose he wanted out of their death - money, fame, a guest spot with Leno?
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/14/2008 6:19:31 PM
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Marcus.
Posts: 1360
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What's going on here is something that was covered in the CCW license program I went through. The media won't have the full picture of what happened. Some folks will judge you when you have to defend yourself. You will be guilty in their eyes despite the actual evidence, much of which they won't have access to.
You guys have reinforced this lesson from my class.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/14/2008 6:25:02 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2005
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
What's going on here is something that was covered in the CCW license program I went through. The media won't have the full picture of what happened. Some folks will judge you when you have to defend yourself. You will be guilty in their eyes despite the actual evidence, much of which they won't have access to.
You guys have reinforced this lesson from my class.
Judging Mr. Horn innocent is still judging, sir.
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/14/2008 6:36:19 PM
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Marcus.
Posts: 1360
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Don't read into what I said. I didn't say he was guilty or innocent. I'm just pointing out that to some folks here he is guilty regardless now.
BTW How did what I post judge Mr Horn one way or the other? I don't see that in it.
< Message edited by Marcus. -- 7/14/2008 6:42:48 PM >
_____________________________
Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.
Hosea Project Care Net
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/14/2008 6:39:52 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5024
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
I don't know, RC. I didn't say I have made the easiest choice. But, I feel if that time ever came, God would be with me and guide me and protect me, and I would know what I would have to do.
I can go along with God guiding you what to do to protect your family, I was just assuming (possibly wrongly) that you were espousing total pacification and them claiming it is God's will that one's family is destroyed.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/14/2008 7:09:31 PM
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clayton994
Posts: 72
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Bendigo, Australia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Luke 6:29
If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.
So then you are saying that you would without resistance let drug crazed thugs rape your wife, children, possibly even you, and then kill you without resistance.
Interesting.
Thanks
RC
RC, these words came from Jesus, not 1love1God1way. What would your interpretation of Jesus words in Luke 6:29 be?
Cheers,
Clayton.
My interpretation would not be to extrapolate the slapping on the cheek to permitting someone to rape and murder my wife, children or myself..
As I said a man is told in Scripture to be willing to lay down his life for his wilfe and family.
Thanks
RC
How about permitting someone to take your jacket from you?
Cheers,
Clayton.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/14/2008 7:34:34 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2005
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
I don't know, RC. I didn't say I have made the easiest choice. But, I feel if that time ever came, God would be with me and guide me and protect me, and I would know what I would have to do.
I can go along with God guiding you what to do to protect your family, I was just assuming (possibly wrongly) that you were espousing total pacification and them claiming it is God's will that one's family is destroyed.
Thanks
RC
No no.
I still feel killing is wrong. . .but thus, we live in a fallen world, and if that was my only option. . . what kind of person would i be to not protect my family?
But i do view it as very last resort.
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/14/2008 9:19:19 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3735
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
I don't know, RC. I didn't say I have made the easiest choice. But, I feel if that time ever came, God would be with me and guide me and protect me, and I would know what I would have to do.
I can go along with God guiding you what to do to protect your family, I was just assuming (possibly wrongly) that you were espousing total pacification and them claiming it is God's will that one's family is destroyed.
Thanks
RC
No no.
I still feel killing is wrong. . .but thus, we live in a fallen world, and if that was my only option. . . what kind of person would i be to not protect my family?
But i do view it as very last resort.
Killing is wrong, and your excuse is we live in a a fallen world? Why are you worried about what kind of person would not protect his family if you believe you are doing something wrong in the first place?
John
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/14/2008 10:32:04 PM
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upNORTder
Posts: 224
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
But Jesus didn't give us that example in His crucifixion, did He?
Are you saying that allowing thugs to get away with murder, rape, and theft of a neighbor without challenge or an attempt to stop them is on par with Jesus willingly laying down His life to save those who repent of sin and receive His offer of eternal life?
That's bizarre on a whole new level!
Just curious but which neoghbor of Mr Horn was murdered or raped? Or even physically assaulted?
Mr. Horn knew that how?
My point being that he did not know and was therefore not justified in the use of force to such an extent that he murdered two people by shooting them in the back
Generally the word "murder" is reserved for someone that kills another for personal gain. What do you suppose he wanted out of their death - money, fame, a guest spot with Leno?
Vengence?
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/14/2008 10:44:48 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1991
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Even though I walk in the dark valley I fear no evil; for you (my trusty shotgun) are at my side. With your buckshot and well cleaned barrels that give me courage.
What? That's supposed to refer to God and not my gun where I have put all my faith for my security?
I'd rather have a good alarm system. One, it deters thieves from trying to break in to begin with and it automatically summons the police without even having to dial 911 EVEN IF I'M NOT HOME. Plus I don't have to worry about my kids shooting themselves with it.
David didn't give Goliath a dirty look... He trusted in the Lord and Goliath fell... David's faith was in the Rock, not the rock...
John
And Goliath was an armored soldier in an enemy army at war with Israel! He wasn't stealing a bunch of sheep from David's flock! So it's so far beyond apples and oranges it isn't funny!
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/14/2008 11:14:22 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1991
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
If God had sent me to live somewhere other than the state I do now (not country...I am talking about STATE) I would not have that ability/right. Because of God I am here and able to defend myself if the need ever arises. Because of GOD, I had the ability and finances to purchase my sidearm. Because of GOD, I was able to get the training to carry this side arm with me lawfully.
I FULLY give credit to where credit is due. If God did not want me to have this sidearm, I would not have it. And I know, if I ever need to defend myself, it will be because God enabled me to have this weapon to do so at such a time. THIS is how God is "protecting" me.
Seven out of the top 25 safest cities are in CA not KC or MO (in fact not a one). NY another gun unfriendly state has 4 out of 25. So almost half of the safest cities are in gun unfriendly states. The fortress state of TX only has a paltry 2. I thought all them guns made you safer?
So like you I am glad I was born in the state I was too!
2008 safest cities
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/14/2008 11:57:39 PM
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rhippie
Posts: 572
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
But Jesus didn't give us that example in His crucifixion, did He?
Are you saying that allowing thugs to get away with murder, rape, and theft of a neighbor without challenge or an attempt to stop them is on par with Jesus willingly laying down His life to save those who repent of sin and receive His offer of eternal life?
That's bizarre on a whole new level!
Just curious but which neoghbor of Mr Horn was murdered or raped? Or even physically assaulted?
Mr. Horn knew that how?
My point being that he did not know and was therefore not justified in the use of force to such an extent that he murdered two people by shooting them in the back
Generally the word "murder" is reserved for someone that kills another for personal gain. What do you suppose he wanted out of their death - money, fame, a guest spot with Leno?
I have no idea what Mr Horn was looking to gain if indeed he thought that far ahead. FWIW murder doesn't need to be done for personal gain in fact I would submit that most murders are not that well thought out but are, like Mr Horn's, spur of the moment decisions that are terribly flawed
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/15/2008 12:00:25 AM
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rhippie
Posts: 572
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
If God had sent me to live somewhere other than the state I do now (not country...I am talking about STATE) I would not have that ability/right. Because of God I am here and able to defend myself if the need ever arises. Because of GOD, I had the ability and finances to purchase my sidearm. Because of GOD, I was able to get the training to carry this side arm with me lawfully.
I FULLY give credit to where credit is due. If God did not want me to have this sidearm, I would not have it. And I know, if I ever need to defend myself, it will be because God enabled me to have this weapon to do so at such a time. THIS is how God is "protecting" me.
Seven out of the top 25 safest cities are in CA not KC or MO (in fact not a one). NY another gun unfriendly state has 4 out of 25. So almost half of the safest cities are in gun unfriendly states. The fortress state of TX only has a paltry 2. I thought all them guns made you safer?
So like you I am glad I was born in the state I was too!
2008 safest cities
Based on that logic the DC oput to be the safest city in the country instead of one of the deadliest
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/15/2008 11:39:13 AM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1153
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: offline
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It also should be noted that that "list" only counts cities with population OVER 75,000. FYI, Missouri only has 6 cities that are over that population mark, and two of them are suburbs of KCMO. If you want a accurate look at crime data, look at the overall STATE ratios of crime. And their you will find that states with less gun restrictions are as a whole, have less violent crime than states with such measures.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/15/2008 11:46:46 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5824
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Generally the word "murder" is reserved for someone that kills another for personal gain. What do you suppose he wanted out of their death - money, fame, a guest spot with Leno?
Vengence?
How so, it was his neighbor's house robbed? My experience has been that vengence is taken by one wronged.
You may, but the thought has never crossed my mind to take revenge on behalf of a neighbor. Is that a common thing for people to do in your area?
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/15/2008 2:29:37 PM
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ken1906_4
Posts: 279
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Maryland
Status: offline
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So to summarize this discussion it is safe to assume that the Christian response to this situation is "kill or be killed". I guess the early Christian Church (pre-Constantine) had it all wrong, taking all that persecution being more than willing to die and not one time lifting up a weapon to defend themselves or concerning themselves defending their or others worldly possessions.
How dare them for not taking up their weapons. 
_____________________________
"Choosing between Republicans and Democrats is like choosing between the Pharisees and Sadducees. Both are enemies of Christ."
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