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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/11/2008 11:56:58 AM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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To everyone who is against the death penalty:
I can understand being against the death penalty, and I don't fancy myself to be a worthy executioner. However, if there are citizens who do volunteer for the job, I do not know if they are at all immoral for doing so. That is not my sense.
Instead, what if a state points to its laws as justification for the execution of a murderer? Doesn't it therefore have a degree of justification?
When we oppose the death penalty personally, I can see that we are speaking out of personal, often Christian, Biblical, and Godly conviction. However, when those who support the penalty personally do so, they also appear earnest in their Christianity. So, the only question I have is, when we advocate for its abolishment in general or, hypothetically, for its reinstatement, do we do so as citizens or as Christians?
I mean, do your arguments against the death penalty tend toward the civil (general or political) or the personal?
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/11/2008 11:08:08 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3836
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
Instead, what if a state points to its laws as justification for the execution of a murderer? Doesn't it therefore have a degree of justification?
Being the ordained minister of God's wrath is all the justification they need... When Pilate told Christ he held in his hand the power of life and death over Christ, he was quickly told by Christ the origin of the power was from God...
quote:
When we oppose the death penalty personally, I can see that we are speaking out of personal, often Christian, Biblical, and Godly conviction.
What Biblical conviction? The bible is the last thing one should use to support an argument for being against the putting folks to death...
quote:
However, when those who support the penalty personally do so, they also appear earnest in their Christianity. So, the only question I have is, when we advocate for its abolishment in general or, hypothetically, for its reinstatement, do we do so as citizens or as Christians?
God ordained it... As for the the last question... Can't serve two masters...
quote:
I mean, do your arguments against the death penalty tend toward the civil (general or political) or the personal?
I believe most arguments against the death penalty are founded in skewed understandings of love and forgiveness and the very strange concept that the law has been revoked... And my personal favorite... If a person is put to death its wrong because they can no longer be saved...
John
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/12/2008 3:31:10 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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SovIsHe,
I believe I agree with you. However, I cannot recall if you answered the question that may be particular relevant to the Pauline understanding of the respect for gov't authority: What if a government seems to question its own authority or doubt its legitimacy implicitly by appealing to the governed themselves? This I mean in the sense of appealing to the crowd, or erecting some ostensible logical justification or expedience for governance that implies a redundant commiseration of teh populace, such as when erecting a dictatorship of the proletariat, and perhaps other examples that may represent a hesitance to view authority as self-justified by its existence. These, I argue, would be where we can recognize that Paul's pronouncements do not apply, because authority itself has been ceded or, at the least, is held in doubt by its own representatives.
Thanks
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/12/2008 7:34:25 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3836
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
SovIsHe,
I believe I agree with you. However, I cannot recall if you answered the question that may be particular relevant to the Pauline understanding of the respect for gov't authority: What if a government seems to question its own authority or doubt its legitimacy implicitly by appealing to the governed themselves? This I mean in the sense of appealing to the crowd, or erecting some ostensible logical justification or expedience for governance that implies a redundant commiseration of teh populace, such as when erecting a dictatorship of the proletariat, and perhaps other examples that may represent a hesitance to view authority as self-justified by its existence. These, I argue, would be where we can recognize that Paul's pronouncements do not apply, because authority itself has been ceded or, at the least, is held in doubt by its own representatives.
Thanks
The government of the United States doesn't believe nor was it established to be the God ordained civil authority, yet it is because God ordained it to be...
John
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/12/2008 11:50:02 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
SovIsHe,
I believe I agree with you. However, I cannot recall if you answered the question that may be particular relevant to the Pauline understanding of the respect for gov't authority: What if a government seems to question its own authority or doubt its legitimacy implicitly by appealing to the governed themselves? This I mean in the sense of appealing to the crowd, or erecting some ostensible logical justification or expedience for governance that implies a redundant commiseration of teh populace, such as when erecting a dictatorship of the proletariat, and perhaps other examples that may represent a hesitance to view authority as self-justified by its existence. These, I argue, would be where we can recognize that Paul's pronouncements do not apply, because authority itself has been ceded or, at the least, is held in doubt by its own representatives.
Thanks
The government of the United States doesn't believe nor was it established to be the God ordained civil authority, yet it is because God ordained it to be...
John
Okay. I see what you mean. I agree a gov't doesn't have to explicitly claim its authority comes from God in order for us to know that its authority in fact comes from God.
However, what about a government that holds its ordination or even merely its right to rule in doubt and asks, redundantly, for further justification?
See what I am talking about? I don't know if the US falls into this category to be honest. Possibly not. Probably not. But perhaps we ought to consider the language it employs. However, I would say that the ideologically founded Third Reich and other examples from the 20th century did.
Please consider my thought on its own merit, though, without regard to its implications, if you will.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/13/2008 10:50:11 PM
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modu
Posts: 64
Joined: 6/19/2008
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SovereignisHe,
I can tell your mindset and somehow, I am led to understand that to get this issue straightened up with you would take some sitting you down together. Anyway, as Christians, we now live by faith in Christ Jesus. We are now alive in Him and live through Him here on earth. Christ Jesus did not cancel the law, He only gave it life. How? Study the Holy Scripture and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you on His spiritual revelation. The whole purpose of Salvation is not to destroy, but to give or save life. Jesus is the resurrection and life and not of the dead (Killing). Christianity and Judaism are two different understandings but historically related to different destinations. In plain terms, Christianity does not support death penalty as punishment lest the purpose of forgiveness is wasted. Meaning, the purpose Jesus died for our sins on the Cross is lost (God forbid). The issue is not legalistic when you want to see it from the eyes of Christ Jesus, who is love but very legalistic when people rationalize it from the sight of men. Love does not speak of weakness, neither of turning your back on crime or wickedness. What love is telling you is to challenge the real enemy with the power of light and pull the victim to fulfillment or success. The enemy is the spirit of the devil. That is the reason Christ has given us of His Spirit (power) to challenge and overcome the darkness of the world.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/13/2008 11:02:53 PM
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doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: modu
Let us rely on the leading of the Spirit of God here in the name of Christ Jesus and not on emotional or religous understanding.
Justice is Christian value.
Proverbs 21:3 To do righteousness and justice. Is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/13/2008 11:04:15 PM
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armydude
Posts: 15140
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
quote:
ORIGINAL: modu
Let us rely on the leading of the Spirit of God here in the name of Christ Jesus and not on emotional or religous understanding.
Justice is Christian value.
Proverbs 21:3 To do righteousness and justice. Is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
You have hit the nail on the head. The death penalty is an extreme, but justifiable in extreme circumstances. Not preferable, but justifiable.
_____________________________
Good question, you think?
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/13/2008 11:39:22 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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Here's another point:
Why don't the jury and the victim's family get together and beat the murderer down with their fists or with rocks and such? If you can't manually kill someone, maybe you secretly really don't think they ought to be killed and you are self-deceived in your belief that their death is righteous.
What do y'all think?
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 12:19:06 AM
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doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
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Why would it be a self deception for giving the government the role of executioner?
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 12:20:08 AM
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HisFish
Posts: 539
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
Here's another point:
Why don't the jury and the victim's family get together and beat the murderer down with their fists or with rocks and such? If you can't manually kill someone, maybe you secretly really don't think they ought to be killed and you are self-deceived in your belief that their death is righteous.
What do y'all think?
I love a good steak, but the fact i dont want to be the one to slaughter the cow dosent mean im secretly a vegan, and just like there are those willing to work as butchers, there are those who are willing to do the states bidding.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 1:10:26 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3836
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: modu
SovereignisHe,
I can tell your mindset and somehow, I am led to understand that to get this issue straightened up with you would take some sitting you down together.
We could sit forever and nothing would change...
quote:
Anyway, as Christians, we now live by faith in Christ Jesus. We are now alive in Him and live through Him here on earth.
The same Christ Jesus who plainly told Pilate that his power to take life was came from above?
quote:
Christ Jesus did not cancel the law, He only gave it life. How? Study the Holy Scripture and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you on His spiritual revelation.
My views on the subject are directly from scripture...
quote:
The whole purpose of Salvation is not to destroy, but to give or save life.
Salvation isn't bound by what is or isn't the just punishment...
quote:
Jesus is the resurrection and life and not of the dead (Killing).
Jesus was around for the the Flood, Sodom, Jericho....
quote:
Christianity and Judaism are two different understandings but historically related to different destinations.
Whatever that is supposed to mean as it pertains to the subject...
quote:
In plain terms, Christianity does not support death penalty as punishment lest the purpose of forgiveness is wasted. Meaning, the purpose Jesus died for our sins on the Cross is lost (God forbid).
The thief on the cross who was promised Paradise says you are wrong...
quote:
The issue is not legalistic when you want to see it from the eyes of Christ Jesus, who is love but very legalistic when people rationalize it from the sight of men. Love does not speak of weakness, neither of turning your back on crime or wickedness.What love is telling you is to challenge the real enemy with the power of light and pull the victim to fulfillment or success. The enemy is the spirit of the devil. That is the reason Christ has given us of His Spirit (power) to challenge and overcome the darkness of the world.
Justice isn't related to the darkness of the world...
John
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 1:11:29 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3836
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
SovIsHe,
I believe I agree with you. However, I cannot recall if you answered the question that may be particular relevant to the Pauline understanding of the respect for gov't authority: What if a government seems to question its own authority or doubt its legitimacy implicitly by appealing to the governed themselves? This I mean in the sense of appealing to the crowd, or erecting some ostensible logical justification or expedience for governance that implies a redundant commiseration of teh populace, such as when erecting a dictatorship of the proletariat, and perhaps other examples that may represent a hesitance to view authority as self-justified by its existence. These, I argue, would be where we can recognize that Paul's pronouncements do not apply, because authority itself has been ceded or, at the least, is held in doubt by its own representatives.
Thanks
The government of the United States doesn't believe nor was it established to be the God ordained civil authority, yet it is because God ordained it to be...
John
Okay. I see what you mean. I agree a gov't doesn't have to explicitly claim its authority comes from God in order for us to know that its authority in fact comes from God.
However, what about a government that holds its ordination or even merely its right to rule in doubt and asks, redundantly, for further justification?
See what I am talking about? I don't know if the US falls into this category to be honest. Possibly not. Probably not. But perhaps we ought to consider the language it employs. However, I would say that the ideologically founded Third Reich and other examples from the 20th century did.
Please consider my thought on its own merit, though, without regard to its implications, if you will.
God raised Pharaoh to power...
John
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 4:32:40 AM
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doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
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quote:
Or just hold onto them until they die in captivity and let God judge them! God requires the government to be His minister for justice. He requires punishment here on earth of crimes committed.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 5:19:26 AM
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ConstantReader
Posts: 158
Joined: 1/28/2008
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I'd rather err on the side of mercy than on the side of death. These days, many convictions have been overturned by new technology and DNA testing. One of the most shameful legacies of America is putting to death innocent people while allowing the guilty to remain free.
_____________________________
Long days and pleasant nights.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 8:37:09 AM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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quote:
God raised Pharaoh to power...
I am not sure how that is relevant. Perhaps you can elaborate. It seems that Pharaoh was just a run of the mill ancient empire-style ruler. I'm not aware of him questioning the source of his own authority or doubting it in some way.
Does the government of Spain fall under the Pauline rubric for following authority, for instance?
< Message edited by hellohellohi -- 7/14/2008 9:00:22 AM >
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 8:40:38 AM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
Here's another point:
Why don't the jury and the victim's family get together and beat the murderer down with their fists or with rocks and such? If you can't manually kill someone, maybe you secretly really don't think they ought to be killed and you are self-deceived in your belief that their death is righteous.
What do y'all think?
I love a good steak, but the fact i dont want to be the one to slaughter the cow dosent mean im secretly a vegan, and just like there are those willing to work as butchers, there are those who are willing to do the states bidding.
Pretty fair analogy, I suppose. It just seems to me that if the interested parties can't see it through in certain cases, then the death penalty ought not to be implemented, even following conviction of a capital crime. Perhaps they don't need to do the killing themselves, but I find lethal injection just too easy -- kind of like clicking a mouse. There should be no impulsiveness to the initiation of the process -- as there is in a suicide, for instance. Instead, the process ought to be slow and capable of being broken off if the interested parties have second thoughts. I really don't care if this results in egregious pain on the part of the perpretrator.
I think the crushing hope experienced by the murderer in such an instance would also be beneficial or at least a source of hope on my part.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 1:16:37 PM
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modu
Posts: 64
Joined: 6/19/2008
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The Holy Bible is a spiritual book open to all to read, even to devil and its agents. The power from the word of God is received by revelation and this is only through the Holy Spirit. You can read and memorize the whole Bible, but if you lack the interpretation by the Spirit of Christ, you would only end up having critical and legalistic views. We all learn constantly and every day from the leading of the Holy Spirit. I hope those who can hear, would get the message.
Capital punishment whatever excuse one color’s it is simply murder.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 1:18:57 PM
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armydude
Posts: 15140
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: modu
Capital punishment whatever excuse one color’s it is simply murder.
Taking one's life by an individual is murder. That much is true. But since you started out talking about God's word, I've got to ask for a verse to back up your stand on this.
_____________________________
Good question, you think?
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 1:22:54 PM
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draexo
Posts: 611
Joined: 1/26/2007
From: Saratoga County, New York
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
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ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
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ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
I was waiting for someone to bring this u.  So am I right in my understanding that you already had a comeback ready for this? Is this an open mind?quote:
This was the result of someone specifically testing the Spirit of the Lord. Someone who was puffing himself up to make himself look good in the Lord's service. Notice that Ananias did not even kill someone! His pride was his undoing. I fail to see how this circumstance applies to capital punishment as we are talking about it.
You're dancing around the point. Ananias and Sapphira broke God's law and their punishment was death.
I am all for capital punishment, as long as it is Jesus who is the judge and jury!
So from what I understand, you're saying that it's not the concept of capital punishment that bothers you, but the judges that prescribe it. Is this correct? What then are you doing about it? It seems to me that praying for the judges to have wisdom would be a top priority, far above bashing them.
Or just hold onto them until they die in captivity and let God judge them!
Can you produce scripture that even remotely implies this is what God commands?
John
Matthew 7
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Luke 6
37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
John 8
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
John 12
47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
Can you tell me where it says in the NT to exercise capital punishment as a follower of Jesus?
_____________________________
The truth will set you free!
TRUTH
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 1:25:50 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
SovereignIsHe wrote: The same Christ Jesus who plainly told Pilate that his power to take life was came from above?
Does that make what Pilate does right?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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