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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 2:11:55 AM
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swan42
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quote:
My point was that adam and eve had no imperfections. They were as healthy and intelligent as humans can get so it was unnecessary for God to implement physical attraction in such a way because evolution of the gene pool wouldn't be necessary.
Yet, adam and eve were not very wise.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 6:52:18 AM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
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Yes.
So then how would your opinion be anymore or less true than my own?
If the answer had been no, how would your opinion be anymore or less true than the opinion of anyone else?
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 8:39:36 AM
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hellohellohi
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quote:
If she truly does, then she knows what the experience of color is like. If there is something about the perception of color that she didn't know, then she didn't know everything.
No, knowing everything "about" something could be different. Consider the distinction like this: Knowing everything about a certain conscious (mind-brain) state would be to know everything quantifiable, fMRI, EEG, PET (isn't that one? positron emission tomography?). In other words, let's suppose Mary had a perfect working model of the brain system that supports color vision. However, this model would be unable alone to elicit a qualitative interior experience for Mary. In other words, unless this model was directly hard-wired into her brain, true, she wouldn't know everything "about" red or whatever color -- however, as long as we state our meaning before-hand, we can still say she knows everything about red, in the sense of everything quantitative.
I believe that is what is meant by the Mary thought-experiment.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 9:26:40 AM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Another view original with Aristotle and adopted by Aquinas is that the soul is the form (in its Platonic sense) of the body. That comes closest, I think, to the Hebrew meaning of 'nephesh'. As you may be aware, one of the chief differences between Plato and Aristotle, is that Plato believed in the independent reality of forms which are separable from the material aspect of a being, whereas Aristotle held that forms did not exist apart from matter.
I would agree with that. So I would define soul as a union in one entity of spiritual and biological life. I am tempted to refer to it as a psychosomatic unity, but we tend to identify the prefix "psyche-" with the mind, where in terms of the soul, I would consider the correct referent to be the spirit.
Well, I have noticed you have a tendency to become obtuse when you are reluctant to actually answer a question, but we will go with it.
What role do you think the soul plays in a person's life, and how does this differ from what an animal experiences?
The soul is that faculty which is aware of God and receives revelation from God. I don't think animals have what we would call mystic experiences.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 9:36:39 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
The soul is that faculty which is aware of God and receives revelation from God. I don't think animals have what we would call mystic experiences.
And how would this manifest itself in everyday experience?
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Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 9:41:35 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
If the answer had been no, how would your opinion be anymore or less true than the opinion of anyone else?
I didn't say my opinion would necessarily be more or less true than anyone else’s.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 9:44:18 AM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
The soul is that faculty which is aware of God and receives revelation from God. I don't think animals have what we would call mystic experiences.
And how would this manifest itself in everyday experience?
An excellent book on that subject is The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence. The title actually says it all, but the book is very short and easy to read and well worth the reading.
And then, of course, implementing the Practice personally. In confirmation class we were directed toward the "means of grace" as important to living the life of the spirit.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 9:48:52 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
An excellent book on that subject is The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence. The title actually says it all, but the book is very short and easy to read and well worth the reading.
And then, of course, implementing the Practice personally. In confirmation class we were directed toward the "means of grace" as important to living the life of the spirit.
Would awareness of God be a mainfestation of having a soul?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 9:56:45 AM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
An excellent book on that subject is The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence. The title actually says it all, but the book is very short and easy to read and well worth the reading.
And then, of course, implementing the Practice personally. In confirmation class we were directed toward the "means of grace" as important to living the life of the spirit.
Would awareness of God be a mainfestation of having a soul?
In some sense. Subjectively, since such awareness is by definition subjective. How one would determine objectively that someone else has such an awareness is problematic. Obviously, it is not something one could determine relative to fossils.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 10:13:56 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
In some sense. Subjectively, since such awareness is by definition subjective. How one would determine objectively that someone else has such an awareness is problematic. Obviously, it is not something one could determine relative to fossils.
Is awareness of self a manifestation of the soul?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 10:18:18 AM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
In some sense. Subjectively, since such awareness is by definition subjective. How one would determine objectively that someone else has such an awareness is problematic. Obviously, it is not something one could determine relative to fossils.
Is awareness of self a manifestation of the soul?
Not if soul is defined as something which distinguishes humans from other animals. Some other animals appear to have awareness of self commensurate with that of a human child.
If such awareness of self is a manifestation of the soul, we must then submit that these animals have souls.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 10:28:27 AM
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Marcus.
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But is self awareness evidence of a soul? Or is a soul something that can as of yet not be measured?
Maybe a soul is merely that part of you that survives the death of the body.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 10:34:10 AM
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Jhud
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Not if soul is defined as something which distinguishes humans from other animals. Some other animals appear to have awareness of self commensurate with that of a human child.
If such awareness of self is a manifestation of the soul, we must then submit that these animals have souls.
Well, let's consider apes - in what way does an ape think about 'self'? Does an ape consideritself in light of other apes that exist or have existed?
Does an ape consider the purpose of its life?
Does an ape measure it's life in terms of achievement?
Does an ape consider the fate of it's life once its life is over?
Does an ape have a set of rules it considers when making behavior choices?
Does an ape have a set of beliefs which determine how it views the world around it, and can an ape be convinced to consider a different set of beliefs?
How do you know the answers to any of these questions?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 10:35:30 AM
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Method
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ORIGINAL: Jhud
But your opinion about that evidence is a product of your genetics and experience.
Yes, it is. However, the evidence is independent of either of our genetics or experience. Also, natural selection tends to limit the number of people whose genetics leads to false impressions of the world. There are not that many people alive today who do not have a concept of gravity, as one example.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 10:38:10 AM
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Jhud
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Yes, it is. However, the evidence is independent of either of our genetics or experience. Also, natural selection tends to limit the number of people whose genetics leads to false impressions of the world. There are not that many people alive today who do not have a concept of gravity, as one example.
But as an atheist you believe that literally billions of people have false impressions about the existence of God - that would seem to be evidence completely opposite to your assertions.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 10:44:34 AM
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Method
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ORIGINAL: cih92
Just because thoughts are corrrelated with brain waves does not mean that thoughts are identical with brain waves.
Then show me someone who does not have brain activity but still has thoughts.
quote:
Do you know what a person is thinking just by looking at his brain waves? The answer is "No."
Actually, that is exactly what they are doing with fMRI. They are using brain activity to read people's thoughts.
Scientists can accurately predict which of a thousand pictures a person is looking at by analyzing brain activity using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI). The approach should shed light on how the brain processes visual information, and it might one day be used to reconstruct dreams.
"[The research] suggests that fMRI-based measurements of brain activity contain much more information about underlying neural processes than has previously been appreciated," says Jack Gallant, a neuroscientist at the University of California, Berkeley, and senior author of the study.
http://www.technologyreview.com/Biotech/20380/?a=f
quote:
Thoughts are not identical with brain waves because thoughts have different properties than brain waves.
Ocean waves have different properties than wind. Does this mean that waves are not caused by wind?
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 10:47:11 AM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
But as an atheist you believe that literally billions of people have false impressions about the existence of God - that would seem to be evidence completely opposite to your assertions.
As a christian you also believe that billions of people have a false impression about the existence of God. You might want to think on that one.
And yes, the mind can be fooled. This is why skepticism is so important. Atheism is skepticism at it's very root.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 10:48:45 AM
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Method
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Are we going to get back to the OP any time soon?
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 10:53:40 AM
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Jhud
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As a christian you also believe that billions of people have a false impression about the existence of God. You might want to think on that one.
But I don't believe their wrong beliefs are a product of genetics and environment.
quote:
And yes, the mind can be fooled. This is why skepticism is so important. Atheism is skepticism at it's very root.
So if the mind can be fooled (apparently on incredibly vast scale, involving most of humanity for most of human history) and belief (including those born of skepticism) is a product of the same brain produced by genetics and and experience evaluating the same evidence, is there any realible basis for the belief that we can ever know whether our impressions of the world are real or not?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 10:56:42 AM
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Jhud
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Are we going to get back to the OP any time soon?
This thread is about criticisms of evolution - the fact that following evolution to its logical conclusions undermines our ability to reliably comprehend reality is perhaps the greatest criticism of all.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 11:10:27 AM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Are we going to get back to the OP any time soon?
This thread is about criticisms of evolution - the fact that following evolution to its logical conclusions undermines our ability to reliably comprehend reality is perhaps the greatest criticism of all.
Where have you shown this? Natural selection would preserve genes which lead to an accurate understanding of reality, select against genes which do not lead to an accurate understanding, and ignore genes which do not alter fitness. How is this a problem?
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 11:31:35 AM
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Jhud
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Where have you shown this? Natural selection would preserve genes which lead to an accurate understanding of reality, select against genes which do not lead to an accurate understanding, and ignore genes which do not alter fitness. How is this a problem?
Its already been demonstrated that the vast majority of humanity (at least by your estimation) have an inaccurate understanding of reality, so your assertion is disproved, and if genetics and experience are the source of our beliefs, then we as a species have unreliable cognitive facilities for assessing reality.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 11:59:11 AM
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hellohellohi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cih92
Just because thoughts are corrrelated with brain waves does not mean that thoughts are identical with brain waves.
Then show me someone who does not have brain activity but still has thoughts.
It is trivial but true that the only way a scientist can CORRELATE brain states with mind states is by interview, by subjective reporting coupled with physical measurement. This I say because it is not a scientifically answerable question to say whether there are thoughts unconnected to brains. They are not observable or capable of being objectively investigated. Indeed, thoughts are subjective.
Also, there are some who claim to have thoughts while in the deepest of comas. Perhaps these states ARE measureable though, but faintly.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 12:06:02 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Its already been demonstrated that the vast majority of humanity (at least by your estimation) have an inaccurate understanding of reality, so your assertion is disproved, . . .
The inaccuracies do not affect fitness, and could even be argued as beneficial as part of a social unit.
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Spontaneously experienced on our parts, perhaps.
