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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/23/2008 9:09:23 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BibleL7
BTW Baptists and Assemblies of God as far as I recolect do not consider themselves as denominations.
Both of whom are at the head of any list of "denominations."
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/23/2008 9:20:41 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: BibleL7
BTW Baptists and Assemblies of God as far as I recolect do not consider themselves as denominations.
Both of whom are at the head of any list of "denominations."
Just because you avoid a label doesn't make you any different. Except that you do not follow the NT instructions on structure of a local church.
BTW, you are no more a church than a brick is a building. You are either part of a church or part of The Church or you are out of the biblical description of either. Nowhere in the NT is a single individual addressed as a or the church.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/23/2008 9:39:38 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: BibleL7
BTW Baptists and Assemblies of God as far as I recolect do not consider themselves as denominations.
Both of whom are at the head of any list of "denominations."
Just because you avoid a label doesn't make you any different. Except that you do not follow the NT instructions on structure of a local church.
BTW, you are no more a church than a brick is a building. You are either part of a church or part of The Church or you are out of the biblical description of either. Nowhere in the NT is a single individual addressed as a or the church.
So how many "Christians" are necessary before there is a "church?" Are you telling me the Ethiopian Eunich was not a member of Christ's church?
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/23/2008 9:52:03 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
So how many "Christians" are necessary before there is a "church?"
Every single born-again believer is a member of the Body of Christ - the Church.
How many for a local gathering? Considering each and every single Christian is part of the Church.. this is a two fold answer.
But for a local gathering? "For wherever two or more are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Matthew 18:20.
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
Are you telling me the Ethiopian Eunich was not a member of Christ's church?
After he was saved? Yes! A resounding yes! He entered into the family, into the Body of Christ, into the Church.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/23/2008 12:08:11 PM
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phosadaud
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Romans 12:1-21
1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will. 3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully. 9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13 Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality. 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. 17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. 20 On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Sure sounds to me like God never intended nor desired for individuals to be the Church but rather we are part of and should operate as part of the Church.
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~Kristin~
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/23/2008 1:40:13 PM
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earthless
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Exactly, Kristin - there is no 'Lone-Ranger' mentality in Scripture. We are called to not neglect congregating as believers, as brothers and sisters in the Lord, for worship, prayer, etc..
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/23/2008 4:48:31 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Exactly, Kristin - there is no 'Lone-Ranger' mentality in Scripture. We are called to not neglect congregating as believers, as brothers and sisters in the Lord, for worship, prayer, etc..
That's right; with NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU!
(Thread: Old God New Earth? I don't think so.)
(drmark)(Post #248) I've seen enough to once again realize the importance of denominational tradition in developing a correct understanding of essential Christian doctrine.
(drmark)(post #297) Your list of whatevers is meaningless as many "denominations" in it espouse heresy.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/23/2008 4:59:03 PM
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phosadaud
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Where in Scripture do you see that if a body isn't perfectly united in harmony, you should gather up your toys and play elsewhere?
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/23/2008 5:08:52 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Where in Scripture do you see that if a body isn't perfectly united in harmony, you should gather up your toys and play elsewhere?
Where in scripture do you see that if a body isn't perfectly united in harmony, you should deny it, accuse those who point it out of heresy, and encourage the practice of division?
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/23/2008 5:12:52 PM
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phosadaud
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I've never denied the body isn't perfect in unity, I've never accused anyone of heresy here, and I don't encourage the practice of division because I do not see denominations as automatically divisive.
And nice job dodging my question.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/23/2008 5:16:41 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
That's right; with NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU!
The kind of divisions that concern me are those that break off into one family enclaves that look down their noses at the rest of the Body of Christ. Something that's against the loving the brethren thingy that Jesus is so keen on.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/23/2008 5:21:43 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Where in Scripture do you see that if a body isn't perfectly united in harmony, you should gather up your toys and play elsewhere?
Where in scripture do you see that if a body isn't perfectly united in harmony, you should deny it, accuse those who point it out of heresy, and encourage the practice of division?
VERY simple question - when is it right (if ever, according to you) to divide over someone on the core essentials of Christianity?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/24/2008 7:37:06 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Where in Scripture do you see that if a body isn't perfectly united in harmony, you should gather up your toys and play elsewhere?
Where in scripture do you see that if a body isn't perfectly united in harmony, you should deny it, accuse those who point it out of heresy, and encourage the practice of division?
VERY simple question - when is it right (if ever, according to you) to divide over someone on the core essentials of Christianity?
I see you have neatly dodged the real issue.
Define "core essentials" of Christianity.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/24/2008 7:48:57 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Where in Scripture do you see that if a body isn't perfectly united in harmony, you should gather up your toys and play elsewhere?
Where in scripture do you see that if a body isn't perfectly united in harmony, you should deny it, accuse those who point it out of heresy, and encourage the practice of division?
VERY simple question - when is it right (if ever, according to you) to divide over someone on the core essentials of Christianity?
I see you have neatly dodged the real issue.
Define "core essentials" of Christianity.
The Bible itself reveals those doctrines that are essential to the Christian faith.
They are 1) the Deity of Christ, 2) Salvation by Grace, and 3) Resurrection of Christ, and 4) the gospel.
These are the doctrines the Bible says are necessary. Though there are many other important doctrines, these four are the only ones that are declared by Scripture to be essential. A non-regenerate person, or a cultist (Mormon or Jehovah's Witness), will deny one or more of these essential doctrines. Please note that there are other derivative doctrines of scripture that become necessary also, the Trinity being one.
The Deity of Christ
1. Jesus is God in flesh (John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14). See also John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Colpssians 2:9; Philippians 2:5-8; Hebrews 1:8
1. 1 John 4:2-3: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."
The above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh.
1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist.
John 8:24, "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58 where Jesus says "...before Abraham was, I am." He was claiming the divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint. (The Septuagint was the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek.)
Jesus is the proper object of faith
It is not simply enough to have faith. Faith is only as valid as what it is put in. You must put your faith in the proper object. Cults have false objects of faith; therefore, their faith is useless - no matter how sincere they are.
If you put your faith in a vacuum cleaner, then you will be in a lot of trouble on the day of judgment. You might have great faith, but so what? It is in something that can't save you.
The Doctrine of the deity of Christ includes:
1. The Trinity - There is one God who exists in three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are all coeternal, and of the same nature.
2. Monotheism - There is only one God in all existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22; 46:9; 47:8). Mormons believe that many gods exist though they serve and worship only one. Therefore, they are polytheists which excludes them from the camp of Christianity.
The Hypostatic Union - That Jesus is both God and man.
1. The sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ - The sacrifice of Christ is completely sufficient to pay for the sins of the world
2. As God - Jesus must be God to be able to offer a sacrifice of value greater than that of a mere man.
He had to die for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). Only God could do that.
3. As man - Jesus must be man to be able to be a sacrifice for man.
As a man He can be the mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5).
Salvation by Grace
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).
"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace" (Galatians 5:4).
This verse and its context plainly teach that if you believe that you are saved by faith and works then you are not saved at all. This is a common error in the cults. Because they have a false Jesus, they have a false doctrine of salvation. (Read Rom. 3-5 and Galatians 3-5).
You cannot add to the work of God. Galatians 2:21 says, "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin" (Romans 3:20).
"However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:5).
"Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law" (Galatians 3:21).
The Resurrection of Christ
1. "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith" (1 Corinthians 15:14). "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins" (1 Corinthians 15:17).
2. To deny the physical resurrection is to deny Jesus' work, sacrifice, and our resurrection.
3. These verses clearly state that if you say that Jesus did not rise from the dead (in the same body He died in - John 2:19-21), then your faith is useless.
The Gospel
1. "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:8-9).
Verses 8 and 9 here in Galatians are a self declarative statement that you must believe the gospel. The gospel message which in its entirety is that Jesus is God in flesh, who died for sins, rose from the dead, and freely gives the gift of eternal life to those who believe.
2. Furthermore, it would not be possible to present the gospel properly without declaring that Jesus is God in flesh per John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Philippians 2:5-8; Hebrews 1:8.
1 Corinthains 15:1-4 defines what the gospel is: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures".
Within these verses are the essentials: Christ is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Colossians 2:9); Salvation is received by faith (John 1:12; Romans 10:9-10), therefore it is by grace; and the resurrection is mentioned in verse 4. Therefore, this gospel message automatically includes the essentials.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/24/2008 11:00:39 AM
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phosadaud
Posts: 9064
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From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Where in Scripture do you see that if a body isn't perfectly united in harmony, you should gather up your toys and play elsewhere?
Where in scripture do you see that if a body isn't perfectly united in harmony, you should deny it, accuse those who point it out of heresy, and encourage the practice of division?
VERY simple question - when is it right (if ever, according to you) to divide over someone on the core essentials of Christianity?
I see you have neatly dodged the real issue.
We're not the ones dodging. And you still haven't answered the initial question.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/25/2008 12:53:35 PM
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earthless
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That's a great question, Crankius. Here is how I, a self-professing Christian, would answer your questions:
Do you consider me to be part of the same Body of Christ built upon the same foundation?
A resounding yes!
Can you worship with me and fellowship with me,
A resounding yes!
or do you reject me?
Only if you take me out some cheesy restaurant after service and not for some home cooking.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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FREE LUNCH!!! - 7/25/2008 3:03:34 PM
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crankius
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Earthless, I'm sure my pastor would love to have you speak at our church. And then you can take us ALL out for lunch.
HEY EVERYONE!!!! Earthless is speaking, and he's taking ALL OF US out for lunch!
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Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
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