|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: FREE LUNCH!!! - 7/25/2008 3:05:56 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5608
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Earthless, I'm sure my pastor would love to have you speak at our church. And then you can take us ALL out for lunch.
HEY EVERYONE!!!! Earthless is speaking, and he's taking ALL OF US out for lunch!
And right after that is when my wife will bonk me over the head! Then I will become familiar with your area's local paramedic crew.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: FREE LUNCH!!! - 7/26/2008 9:37:19 AM
|
|
|
LawrenceJCaldwell
Posts: 33
Joined: 7/3/2008
Status: offline
|
This thread exploded much to my surprise and delight. Not sure how much my first post on page ONE caused this but just to be sure, I will leave you with this: (it's the title of the chapter in my book, Christian Mythology that I referenced in that post) "Stop Going to Church and Start Being the Church"
_____________________________
Lawrence J. Caldwell
Author & Speaker
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/26/2008 4:51:38 PM
|
|
|
phosadaud
Posts: 9730
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
|
Churches in houses aren't unless they act that way. Many do because it is one of the main reasons house churches in this nation start. I'm not bashing all house churches. There are great ones out there. However, there are reasons to start a house church and there are reasons not to. Too often, the reasons not to reign supreme.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/26/2008 7:43:31 PM
|
|
|
Qtman
Posts: 10555
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
|
I for one am not interested in convincing you of anything. First of all no one has to my knowledge spoke out against home church. You however have repeatedly spoken against our choice of worship. In addition to that I do not believe it is in our power to silence you or anyone else.
_____________________________
Don't take life here to seriously. No one gets out alive.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/26/2008 7:58:53 PM
|
|
|
Qtman
Posts: 10555
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
|
I stand corrected one post out of over 160.
_____________________________
Don't take life here to seriously. No one gets out alive.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/26/2008 8:59:51 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5608
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: offline
|
One post out of 160...
House churches? Awesome, praise Jesus for them!
The problem is that Theo is saying he is OK for attending/being a member of a house church. And I (and everyone else) is wrong for fellowshipping at a local church assembly.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/26/2008 9:09:27 PM
|
|
|
jayvance
Posts: 58
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline
|
Coming in late to this discussion, very interesting so far.
I was raised in a hardcore, independent Pentecostal environment until my early adulthood. Later I attended and ministered in both nondenominational and mainstream evangelical denominational churches. I thought I had made some major adjustments coming from where I started to where I am now, but only recently have I come to understand how little of the way we "do church" is actually Biblical. To everyone here who feels righteously indignant when you perceive someone is casting aspersions on your religious traditions, believe me, I've been there, and probably still am there at times. Old habits die hard, especially if they've been inculcated into you under the awesome auspices of God Almighty and the Holy Bible.
Having said that, here are my observations.
1. I honestly don't believe "the church" as we know it today, in all of its sectarian, denominational glory, is what God had in mind when He planted the church in the first century. We can parse words and play antics with semantics, but the plain fact is that Christianity is fractured beyond all recognition compared to the first century. We are not united. United is as united does, and OVERALL the various denominations and sects which make up Christianity are NOT united either in their theology or in their practice. We can't point to some isolated examples of cross-denominational cooperation as proof that all Christians are united. The world wouldn't know what hit it if all Christians were truly united as Jesus prayed we would be.
2. The institutional church as we know it has very little foundation in the New Testament. Christianity was unique among religions in that by divine design it had no priest, no temple, and no sacrifice as part of its worship practices. Yet, like the Israelites who demanded a king "like all the other nations," we have set up our own priesthood, temples, and sacrifices--only we call them clergy, church buildings, and orders of worship. But from the beginning it was not God's plan. The early church was a fellowship of believers where ALL WERE EQUAL. Certainly there were different GIFTINGS, and those with giftings led IN THOSE GIFTINGS, but there was never a separate clergy class set up by Jesus or the apostles. Certainly there was never a single individual appointed to "pastor" a local assembly. The word "pastor" only appears once in the New Testament, and even then it was plural, and there was never any definition of what a pastor actually did. All of the words we interpret to refer to offices--elder, bishop, pastor, etc.--had totally different meanings than the way we interpret them now. We read our own religious traditions back into the text and come up with something totally different from the church's origins.
3. Institutional church hierarchy has NEVER been an antidote to heresy or error. If anything, the history of the institutional church is RAMPANT with heresy and error. The Reformation is only one example. Why would there have needed to be a Reformation if institutional Christianity offered protection against heresy? And for that matter, the Reformation didn't really reform all that much in terms of the underlying man-made religious practices which were un-Biblical.
4. Our present institutional church systems promote passivity and complacency on the part of the body of Christ by shifting the responsibility for ministry away from the body at large and placing it onto a clergy class which the Bible does not sanction. As a result, the body of Christ at large is weak and ineffective. We're paying someone to "minister" when the Bible clearly says we're ALL to minister one to another.
5. Saying that institutional churchianity as we know it is un-Biblical is NOT the same as saying we're all supposed to follow Christ in our own way as lone rangers. Christianity was always intended to operate as a community.
6. Jesus Christ is the head of the church and He never abdicated that role to anyone else. Jesus is the shepherd and ALL of the rest of us are sheep.
These are just a few of the conclusions I've come to after taking a long, hard look at my own preconceived ideas about Christianity in light of what the New Testament actually says about the church. I'm still on the journey from where I am now to where God wants me to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/27/2008 12:30:48 AM
|
|
|
phosadaud
Posts: 9730
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Churches in houses aren't unless they act that way. Many do because it is one of the main reasons house churches in this nation start. I'm not bashing all house churches. There are great ones out there. However, there are reasons to start a house church and there are reasons not to. Too often, the reasons not to reign supreme.
Actually, truth be known, the ONLY reason anyone on this thread has for speaking against home church, is the simple fact that I spoke out against denominational traditions as a source for doctrine. It is a "cheap-shot" approach to shutting me up.
Now, I may be wrong.
Convince me.
#1 You still aren't answering questions posed to you.
#2 People have, ad nauseum, posted that we are not opposed to home churches (although some of us have posted some concerns with how some home churches have operated) so knock off the martyr complex.
#3 You have condemned all of us in denominational churches this entire thread and have said you wouldn't even worship with us. When we challenge your broad generalizations and condemnations, you won't answer our questions but do what you did above and condemn us more and play the victim card. Sorry, it doesn't wash.
#4 And you still aren't answering questions posed to you. (for the latest, please refer back to posts 134 & 138)
_____________________________
~Kristin~
42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/27/2008 12:51:07 AM
|
|
|
phosadaud
Posts: 9730
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: jayvance
1. I honestly don't believe "the church" as we know it today, in all of its sectarian, denominational glory, is what God had in mind when He planted the church in the first century. We can parse words and play antics with semantics, but the plain fact is that Christianity is fractured beyond all recognition compared to the first century. We are not united. United is as united does, and OVERALL the various denominations and sects which make up Christianity are NOT united either in their theology or in their practice. We can't point to some isolated examples of cross-denominational cooperation as proof that all Christians are united. The world wouldn't know what hit it if all Christians were truly united as Jesus prayed we would be.
First, SOME churches operate that way and it in no way is confined to denominations. In fact, if you follow this thread you will see the most divisive are the ones who are against denominations. The rest of us seem to be getting along just fine.
Second, Jesus never said we had to all agree on everything. The Apostles didn't say we had to agree on everything. Remember Paul's exhortation to the church to not divide over "disputable" matters? That means there are things we will disagree on but that aren't that important. There are other things that we will disagree on that are worth dividing over. Paul tells us one of those things is the Judaizers of his time.
quote:
2. The institutional church as we know it has very little foundation in the New Testament. Christianity was unique among religions in that by divine design it had no priest, no temple, and no sacrifice as part of its worship practices. Yet, like the Israelites who demanded a king "like all the other nations," we have set up our own priesthood, temples, and sacrifices--only we call them clergy, church buildings, and orders of worship. But from the beginning it was not God's plan. The early church was a fellowship of believers where ALL WERE EQUAL. Certainly there were different GIFTINGS, and those with giftings led IN THOSE GIFTINGS, but there was never a separate clergy class set up by Jesus or the apostles. Certainly there was never a single individual appointed to "pastor" a local assembly. The word "pastor" only appears once in the New Testament, and even then it was plural, and there was never any definition of what a pastor actually did. All of the words we interpret to refer to offices--elder, bishop, pastor, etc.--had totally different meanings than the way we interpret them now. We read our own religious traditions back into the text and come up with something totally different from the church's origins.
Sorry, you have some wrong info there. The early church had authority - in fact Jesus instituted it. I really don't see how you can read Acts and the epistles and not see the heirarchy of the early church. It's spelled out quite clearly. And remember, Jesus was a Jew. He wasn't starting a "new religion", He was the fulfillment of one. We are all equal in value, but that doesn't mean we have equal authority.
quote:
3. Institutional church hierarchy has NEVER been an antidote to heresy or error. If anything, the history of the institutional church is RAMPANT with heresy and error. The Reformation is only one example. Why would there have needed to be a Reformation if institutional Christianity offered protection against heresy? And for that matter, the Reformation didn't really reform all that much in terms of the underlying man-made religious practices which were un-Biblical.
Some churches are full of error. I grew up in one. And no church is free from error - we're humans after all. However, there are many great churches out there who love God and are following Him.
And the Reformation was huge. Did it create a perfect church? Nope. But, then again, there is no such thing as a perfect church.  As far as what you think that is so heretical about all institutional churches today, well, I'd imagine that would be a new thread - not something that could be covered here. However, I will say that when people think they know it all better than pretty much the entire history of the Church and today's believers, well, I don't take what they say too seriously.
quote:
4. Our present institutional church systems promote passivity and complacency on the part of the body of Christ by shifting the responsibility for ministry away from the body at large and placing it onto a clergy class which the Bible does not sanction. As a result, the body of Christ at large is weak and ineffective. We're paying someone to "minister" when the Bible clearly says we're ALL to minister one to another.
Some churches are. Some aren't. I happen to attend one of many churches in my area where we all ARE ministering to one another, sharing with the lost and helping the hurting. I'm seriously scratching my head wondering where you live that you don't see churches doing just what I see every single day in my area. And I find it offensive that you would reject the hard work so many in the Church do every day without pay and without wages or a title to try and make your point.
quote:
5. Saying that institutional churchianity as we know it is un-Biblical is NOT the same as saying we're all supposed to follow Christ in our own way as lone rangers. Christianity was always intended to operate as a community.
I'm glad you see that Christianity is intended to operate as a community. Not everyone does in this thread. However saying that someone who attends a traditional church is unbiblical is wrong. Unless, you'd care to come up with some Scriptures to back up that assertion. I personally believe we need to use extreme caution in throwing terms like un-biblical and heresy out lest we be like the Pharisees and make our way the only way rather than allowing God to do as He will in ways He desires.
quote:
6. Jesus Christ is the head of the church and He never abdicated that role to anyone else. Jesus is the shepherd and ALL of the rest of us are sheep.
Who has denied that Jesus is the head? Seriously. Where are you getting that idea?
_____________________________
~Kristin~
42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/27/2008 9:56:49 AM
|
|
|
jayvance
Posts: 58
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline
|
Let me clarify some things so you don't hear what I'm not saying.
I'm taking a very broad view in my comments, thus there will be exceptions to the generalities I make. When I say that the institutional church AT LARGE is this way or that way, obviously I'm generalizing and of course there are exceptions. But we have to be honest about the impact Christianity is having--or NOT having--on the world, and try to analyze why that is. If you belong to a thriving church that's making an impact on your community, praise God. But that's the exception rather than the rule.
Regarding the issue of unity, I certainly don't believe all Christians have to agree on everything. But the institutional church as a whole is NOT fulfilling Jesus' prayer to the Father that "they all may be one as we are one." SOME churches are, but MOST are not.
The issue of authority in the New Testament church is too much to cover in this post. But please understand I didn't say there was no authority in the church. What I said was that authority flows from gifting and from Christian example, not from some man-made hierarchy. If someone has a gift for teaching or preaching or any of the other gifts mentioned in the Bible, they have authority to exercise that gift, as long as it's done decently and in order. There is no Biblical foundation for a clergy class whose job it is to exercise spiritual authority over the laity. The apostles had "authority" over the churches they planted, but it's very interesting to note how they exercised that authority. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians, he instructed THE WHOLE CHURCH as to how they ought to handle the errors that were occurring. He did not address himself to "the pastor" or even "the elders," he addressed the whole congregation--because they ALL were expected to participate in the process of providing guidance TO ONE ANOTHER.
It's also interesting to note that Paul did not appoint "elders" in Ephesus until well AFTER the church had been established and AFTER he had left Ephesus. He only appointed "elders" after there had been time for those with giftings and whose lives reflected Christ's attributes to be identified. Furthermore, Paul did not establish an OFFICE of "elder;" the word "elder" in the original language means someone who is "advanced in life, an elder, a senior." An elder was someone whose gifting and Christian example enabled them to serve in some leadership capacity, but they did not have the kind of authority or office that the modern clergy exercises.
Another interesting note about the elders in Ephesus is that Paul specifically told them that they were NOT to profit from the flock but were to work with their own hands so that they could help others in need. Quite a difference from what we have today, wouldn't you say?
I did not say that "all institutional churches" were full of heresy. I said that the institutional church structure is not a GUARANTEE against heresy or error.
I also did not say that anyone who attends a traditional church is un-Biblical. Everyone has to find their own path to truth in this regard, and that path may be a long and winding road. Mine certainly has been. Furthermore, if someone had said to me 20 years ago the things I'm saying now, I wouldn't have been able to accept it. God had to take me from there to here before I was ready to look at the Bible without filtering it through my own religious preconceptions. I believe all who have acknowledged Christ as Savior according to the Scriptures are part of the Body of Christ, period. That is a totally separate issue from the failings of the institutional church as we know it.
As far as Jesus being the head of the church, many institutional churches do not operate as if He were. They are controlled by people in man-made offices, not by Christ.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/27/2008 12:38:28 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5608
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: jayvance
I also did not say that anyone who attends a traditional church is un-Biblical.
Jay
Theo has.
And that is why this thread continues to grow. It is wrong for him to state that.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/27/2008 5:05:58 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5608
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: offline
|
Several - the posts where I and others repeatedly asked you simple questions and you either outright ignored them and or gave non-answers. Crankius asked some excellent question just a page ago.
Here is another opportunity for you to answer them:
Do you consider me to be part of the same Body of Christ built upon the same foundation?
Can you worship with me and fellowship with me, or do you reject me?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/27/2008 8:20:14 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5608
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: offline
|
Crankius asked some excellent question just a page ago.
Here is another opportunity for you to answer them:
Do you consider me to be part of the same Body of Christ built upon the same foundation?
Can you worship with me and fellowship with me, or do you reject me?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/27/2008 8:37:47 PM
|
|
|
phosadaud
Posts: 9730
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
|
I must admit theo, you have great skill at dodging questions. The only reasons I know of to do that is that:
#1 You know you are wrong and if you answer the questions, you will have to admit you were wrong (no biggie - none of us are right about everything).
#2 You don't have an argument. You are simply trying to stir things up.
But, I'll play your little game this one time. Here are the posts where you claim we are un-Biblical for attending a traditional church:
post 55:
quote:
I fellowship all who will disown the divisions of denominationalism
quote:
It is schismatic unbelievers I don't need; Those who think it's all right to split the body into thousands of denominations, and thumb their collective
"authoritative" noses at the true head of that same body. Now THAT's arrogance at its worst. And its all about ego and power, pomp and glory.
post 60 (referring to those in denominations):
quote:
There is to be NO schism in the body, not divided between major and minor considerations. ALL division is wrong. THAT is why I lump ALL dividers together.
quote:
You Cannot have a great bible believing Jesus-following denomination that don't believe the bible or follow Jesus. It is a contradiction in terms. Division is not following Christ. It is dividing Christ. THAT is precisely why "ALL DENOMINATIONS ARE EVIL."
quote:
I would not hesitate to come into your assembly and fellowship with you and invite you to "come out from among them and be ye separate." Then I would go my way with you or without you. I would not stay in the divisiveness with you.
quote:
If Paul, and Cephas, Apollos, and Christ canot be condemned, yet those making divisions in their name ARE condemned, how can you ask me if the leadership of denominationalism is wrong? EVEN those who said "I am of Christ" were condemned by Paul for staying within the body of schismatics. And that is precisely what you are asking me to approve.
quote:
Family members of Christ are called Christians; non-family members are called "unbelievers."
We accept all family members who do not bring division and schism or try to divide by defining differences.
post 68:
quote:
I consider division and denominationalism TO BE a paganistic practice. It certainly is not found either within the context or the meaning of Christianity according to the scripture.
post 84 (referring again to those who are in denominations):
quote:
The first reminder seems to have been inadequate, for Paul reiterates it yet again, calling those who abide in division CARNAL:
post 95:
quote:
Please explain to me why division of the type exhibited in denominationalism is not carnal. How can it possibly be right?
Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc....
_____________________________
~Kristin~
42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/28/2008 10:47:22 AM
|
|
|
Qtman
Posts: 10555
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
|
Theo-book I have gone back and sorta skimmed this thread and I think you may be right. I did not see where you used the term unbiblical. You have however repeatedly used the terms Carnality and evil. For something to be Biblical it should be found in the Bible. Both carnality and evil are, I believe covered quite extensively in the Bible so they are both in fact Biblical. However, you must understand for a Christian the term unbiblical has a different meaning. To us it means we are not living according to God's word and we resent being referred to as evil. You will notice no-one on here has called you evil or accused you of practicing carnality. Why can't you just simply offer us the same respect?
_____________________________
Don't take life here to seriously. No one gets out alive.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/28/2008 11:02:04 AM
|
|
|
crankius
Posts: 4364
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
I fellowship all who will disown the divisions of denominationalism. I operate with all who join me in worship to the Father through the son. What is your problem?
I am built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ. I recognize His Lordship and I exercise my part of the Body of Christ with a wonderful little local fellowship, which happens to be part of the larger fellowship of SBC.
Do you consider me to be part of the same Body of Christ built upon the same foundation? Can you worship with me and fellowship with me, or do you reject me?
Theo,
When I asked my questions, I also quoted your statement that made me ask the questions.
Your thinking in this thread has me a bit confused.
Can I be Biblical in my Christian practice if I haven't disowned my denomination?
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
He Himself is our peace! Ephesians 2:14:a
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/28/2008 12:48:16 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6370
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
That's right; with NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU!
The kind of divisions that concern me are those that break off into one family enclaves that look down their noses at the rest of the Body of Christ. Something that's against the loving the brethren thingy that Jesus is so keen on.
Why is it that the congregations of denominations are depicted as being united and holy, but the "churches in thy houses" are looked at as "looking down their noses?"
I'm not the one who signed up and persistently promoted division within the body of Christ by calling for a break up of existing local churches and meeting in homes for the sake of doing so.
You, not me, have used a lot of energy in dividing the Church into even further pockets of believers that aren't reaching outside themselves or harnessing spiritual gifts and resources for greater ministry.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/28/2008 12:48:43 PM
|
|
|
Qtman
Posts: 10555
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
|
As you said "one more time" this time just for you. When you point a finger at me you have the other three pointed at you. I have done none of those things you mentioned. I just disagree with you. That's the last word I have for this thread.
_____________________________
Don't take life here to seriously. No one gets out alive.
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
But then again I would probably get tired of reading my own posts.
