RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle during youth conference
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/15/2008 6:42:25 PM
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clayton994
Posts: 72
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From: Bendigo, Australia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
I don't believe that children, as a group, are mature enough to handle guns, and am astounded by the number of people here who think otherwise, but I guess we're all different and come from different backgrounds and upbringings.
More than a few children fought the British and they didn't toss stones at them... As well many children lied about their age and have fought in wars...
John
Are you saying that this is a good thing, and that you are in favour of child soldiers??
Cheers,
Clayton.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/15/2008 7:01:15 PM
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Zhi
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Mm, my parents' philosophy on guns and maturity was pretty simple.
Train your kids young how to properly handle guns, and they won't be an issue.
Guns were never exciting to us, because we were allowed from a young age to use them with supervision whenever we wanted, so there was no point in sneaking around trying to use them unsupervised. While using them, we knew the safety measures we should take, including what to do if someone started acting unsafely with one. So, they were never scary, never exciting, and though we knew where they were, it didn't even occur to us to take one out and start messing with it unless we were going target shooting, any more than it would have occured to us that it would be exciting and fun to go play with, say, the potato peeler. *shrug*
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/15/2008 7:30:16 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
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quote:
Train your kids young how to properly handle guns, and they won't be an issue.
Guns were never exciting to us, because we were allowed from a young age to use them with supervision whenever we wanted, so there was no point in sneaking around trying to use them unsupervised. While using them, we knew the safety measures we should take, including what to do if someone started acting unsafely with one. So, they were never scary, never exciting, and though we knew where they were, it didn't even occur to us to take one out and start messing with it unless we were going target shooting, any more than it would have occured to us that it would be exciting and fun to go play with, say, the potato peeler. *shrug*
Very, very well written. That's my own scenario exactly. My advice to anyone who thinks it might be a good idea to own a gun, but thinks it's a good idea to "keep it away from the children" ought to be barred from owning one. It's not practically possible, and it's simply begging for a death in the family. If you're going to own a gun, the whole family needs to own the gun, the children need to be taught safety, responsibility, and familiarity with every aspect of the weapon, or just don't bother buying one. If you're at all scared of guns, or think it's some kind of neat power trip, don't buy one, and don't endanger the rights of those of us who know how to properly use one. Put 911 on speed dial, and hope for the best.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/15/2008 8:17:04 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Facts are parents have been taking their PRETEEN kids hunting since the FOUNDING of this country. Prior to the modern age, it was one of the great bonding experiences between father and son. Now, today, sadly we have lost that when you dont have to go out hunting for your food and kids can sit in front of the TV 24/7 not learning a single thing, growing up hating their parents becasue they think they dont love them. What a sad pathetic life we lead.
Give me a father who gets his child a rifle and teaches them how to use it over a parent who gets their kid a video game system and a cell phone ANY DAY!!
How would the church decide that the winner is mature enough for the prize?
Who decided it had to in the first place?
John
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/15/2008 8:20:07 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3825
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
I don't believe that children, as a group, are mature enough to handle guns, and am astounded by the number of people here who think otherwise, but I guess we're all different and come from different backgrounds and upbringings.
More than a few children fought the British and they didn't toss stones at them... As well many children lied about their age and have fought in wars...
John
Are you saying that this is a good thing, and that you are in favour of child soldiers??
Cheers,
Clayton.
It's a matter of fact... As for it being a good thing... Who knows... Though it does blast a huge in hole in the unfounded claim that children as a group are not mature... As usual such general statements have no merit and are normally fueled by something other than reality...
John
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/15/2008 8:40:03 PM
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mapachito13
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Jesus didn't own a sword and he reprimanded his disciples the only time they used theirs by saying "Stop, no more of this!" Luke 22:51
That's the reason many Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah because they were under the false assumption that he was to be a warrior-king like David. Instead they were presented with the "stumbling block" of the cross and a beaten crucified man.
If a secular group were doing this I wouldn't even bat an eyelash. But I believe in the separation of church and gun!
I really don't understand why some people get all hot and bothered over a cold piece of steel whether it be a gun or a car.
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And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/15/2008 9:09:58 PM
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clayton994
Posts: 72
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Bendigo, Australia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
I don't believe that children, as a group, are mature enough to handle guns, and am astounded by the number of people here who think otherwise, but I guess we're all different and come from different backgrounds and upbringings.
More than a few children fought the British and they didn't toss stones at them... As well many children lied about their age and have fought in wars...
John
Are you saying that this is a good thing, and that you are in favour of child soldiers??
Cheers,
Clayton.
It's a matter of fact... As for it being a good thing... Who knows... Though it does blast a huge in hole in the unfounded claim that children as a group are not mature... As usual such general statements have no merit and are normally fueled by something other than reality...
John
So you are saying that children as a group are mature? ...mature enough to drink alcohol? ...mature enough to drive a car? (going back to Light's initial argument). You said that "beer is covered by the law of the land", but the reason that underage drinking is illegal is because children aren't considered mature enough to handle alcohol. If you think that children are mature, then I can only assume that you don't believe there should be an age limit on alcohol, driving, or any other activity that is legal for adults to participate in.
Cheers,
Clayton.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/15/2008 10:05:16 PM
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SteveSund
Posts: 710
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Facts are parents have been taking their PRETEEN kids hunting since the FOUNDING of this country. Prior to the modern age, it was one of the great bonding experiences between father and son. Now, today, sadly we have lost that when you dont have to go out hunting for your food and kids can sit in front of the TV 24/7 not learning a single thing, growing up hating their parents becasue they think they dont love them. What a sad pathetic life we lead.
Give me a father who gets his child a rifle and teaches them how to use it over a parent who gets their kid a video game system and a cell phone ANY DAY!!
How would the church decide that the winner is mature enough for the prize?
They wouldn't, their parents would. Federal law prohibits the transfer of firearms to minors. I am not positive, but it is unlikely that the person who 'wins' the gun gets it handed to them at the event. I would guess that the church makes arragements with an FFL in the winner's home area and the gun is transferred to the parent.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/15/2008 11:00:55 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3831
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Facts are parents have been taking their PRETEEN kids hunting since the FOUNDING of this country. Prior to the modern age, it was one of the great bonding experiences between father and son. Now, today, sadly we have lost that when you dont have to go out hunting for your food and kids can sit in front of the TV 24/7 not learning a single thing, growing up hating their parents becasue they think they dont love them. What a sad pathetic life we lead.
Give me a father who gets his child a rifle and teaches them how to use it over a parent who gets their kid a video game system and a cell phone ANY DAY!!
How would the church decide that the winner is mature enough for the prize?
Who decided it had to in the first place?
John
You cannot be serious. If some gang-banger lucks out and wins, you (if it were up to you) would give him a weapon?
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/15/2008 11:46:58 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1153
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Facts are parents have been taking their PRETEEN kids hunting since the FOUNDING of this country. Prior to the modern age, it was one of the great bonding experiences between father and son. Now, today, sadly we have lost that when you dont have to go out hunting for your food and kids can sit in front of the TV 24/7 not learning a single thing, growing up hating their parents becasue they think they dont love them. What a sad pathetic life we lead.
Give me a father who gets his child a rifle and teaches them how to use it over a parent who gets their kid a video game system and a cell phone ANY DAY!!
How would the church decide that the winner is mature enough for the prize?
Some churches get cars donated and raffle those away. Should the church make sure that no one entering that raffle is a drunk with a history of DWI's? How many churches have food pantries? Should the church make sure that the people getting the food are not gluttonous pigs? How many churches give money to underground churches in China/India/Iran/ect. Should the churches stop giving because once in awhile the corrupt government gets ahold of that money instead of the christians the money was intended for?
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 12:46:51 AM
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SILVERNAME
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Joined: 2/23/2008
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Wow lucky kid, i wish i had a rifle when i was his age, a m1 garand would be nice too, especially if it came with a nice good recoil-reducing pad.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 1:01:01 AM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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Why do people want to condemn something that they really don’t understand? I’ve heard all kinds of criticism here and most of it is based on personal values and conjecture and for the most part has nothing to do with the facts of the matter.
This is a house of Christ working within their community in an apparent attempt to bring young people under the influence of God and all we can do in denounce then for their efforts. We do this without even knowing how effective they have been in their labors.
Bob
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 9:39:03 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3831
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Facts are parents have been taking their PRETEEN kids hunting since the FOUNDING of this country. Prior to the modern age, it was one of the great bonding experiences between father and son. Now, today, sadly we have lost that when you dont have to go out hunting for your food and kids can sit in front of the TV 24/7 not learning a single thing, growing up hating their parents becasue they think they dont love them. What a sad pathetic life we lead.
Give me a father who gets his child a rifle and teaches them how to use it over a parent who gets their kid a video game system and a cell phone ANY DAY!!
How would the church decide that the winner is mature enough for the prize?
Some churches get cars donated and raffle those away. Should the church make sure that no one entering that raffle is a drunk with a history of DWI's? How many churches have food pantries? Should the church make sure that the people getting the food are not gluttonous pigs? How many churches give money to underground churches in China/India/Iran/ect. Should the churches stop giving because once in awhile the corrupt government gets ahold of that money instead of the christians the money was intended for?
Let's see, Strawman .... how many people have been gunned down by a can of pinto beans???????? How many have been bludgeoned with a handful of benjamins????????? Actually, the car thing can have some liability issues if a known drunk with no license drives off and runs down someone (bars have been held liable for serving people that are obviously intoxicated who then kill someone driving home).
Since we have few details, some of my criticism might be blunted if the church is taking reasonable care in this process. Such as making sure the person receiving the weapon is legally eligible based on the laws of the state (e.g., not a convicted felon, etc.).
Even so, I still think it sends a bad message about Christ given what is generally associated with semi-automatic rifles. Giving away a legitimate hunting rifle would be a better reflection of Christian values.
I don't think gimmicky giveaways are appropriate for churches anyway. It reflects the rampant materialism that we Christians decry in the secular world.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 10:09:16 AM
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Stephanos
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A good number of hunting rifles, specifically shot guns are semi-automatic. meaning the next round is chambered when you fire. Some hunters even line the semi's over traditional bolt in dear hunting as it allows them to get a second shot of quicker, with out loosing the target in the scope.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 10:13:42 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
A good number of hunting rifles, specifically shot guns are semi-automatic. meaning the next round is chambered when you fire. Some hunters even line the semi's over traditional bolt in dear hunting as it allows them to get a second shot of quicker, with out loosing the target in the scope.
A good point, except that the article specified "assault rifle", which is unlikely to be what you describe. It would be nice to know exactly what weapon was to be given away.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 10:19:20 AM
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Stephanos
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An AR-15 is no more an assault rifle than any other semi auto used in hunting!!! It is a SEMI AUTOMATIC. IT CAN NOT BE FULL AUTOMATIC. Mechanically speaking it is no different that the majority of hunting rifles that millions of hunters used each year.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 10:22:48 AM
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Zhi
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The video next to the news article identifies the rifle as an AR-15. An AR-15 is considered an excellent rifle for target shooting, so it's not a surprising choice as a prize for a target shooting competition.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 10:43:34 AM
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Zhi
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*sigh* Again, this is a target-shooting rifle being given as a prize in a target-shooting competition.
We had target-shooting at a Christian camp I went to as well. They didn't give away a rifle to the winner, but the target shooting was never considered inappropriate by anyone.
Would you also suggest that we all go to church wearing our swimwear and then start a bonfire and roast marshmallows in the middle of the sanctuary? Those are considered appropriate summer camp activities too.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 10:51:38 AM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
*sigh* Again, this is a target-shooting rifle being given as a prize in a target-shooting competition.
We had target-shooting at a Christian camp I went to as well. They didn't give away a rifle to the winner, but the target shooting was never considered inappropriate by anyone.
Would you also suggest that we all go to church wearing our swimwear and then start a bonfire and roast marshmallows in the middle of the sanctuary? Those are considered appropriate summer camp activities too.
Are you saying that target rifles and Christian worship are  incompatible? Wearing a rifle over one's arm doesn't make one's appearance immodest does it? (Akin to wearing swimwear?)
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 10:57:44 AM
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Zhi
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I'm saying that there is an appropriate venue for rifles, just as there is an appropriate venue for bonfires, or swimwear. A church camp target shooting competition is an appropriate venue for rifles, a worship service isn't. A church camp lake is an appropriate venue for swimwear, a worship service isn't. A church camp outdoor gathering time is an appropriate venue for a bonfire, a worship service usually isn't. This does not mean that target shooting, having a bonfire, or wearing swimwear is ungodly, it just means that you should do it in the proper venue.
Showing up to worship carrying my power saw, my skis, my gaming system, or a stack of programming books from work would garner odd looks too. It doesn't make any of that stuff ungodly, it's just not something that will be useful during service.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 11:05:08 AM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
I'm saying that there is an appropriate venue for rifles, just as there is an appropriate venue for bonfires, or swimwear. A church camp target shooting competition is an appropriate venue for rifles, a worship service isn't. A church camp lake is an appropriate venue for swimwear, a worship service isn't. A church camp outdoor gathering time is an appropriate venue for a bonfire, a worship service usually isn't. This does not mean that target shooting, having a bonfire, or wearing swimwear is ungodly, it just means that you should do it in the proper venue.
Showing up to worship carrying my power saw, my skis, my gaming system, or a stack of programming books from work would garner odd looks too. It doesn't make any of that stuff ungodly, it's just not something that will be useful during service.
But I didn't say to hold the shooting competition in the church just take them to church unloaded. What's inappropriate? There is no contradiction I would forsee with your logic that Christianity and guns can be compatible! Or is there an inappropriateness that you are unwilling to admit to?
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 11:15:39 AM
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Zhi
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Like I said, it would be no different from taking my skis to church, or holding my television during worship, or my power saw, or a set of golf clubs. It would be distracting for others because there would be no reason for me to stand around holding any of that in a worship service and they would spend their time wondering what I'm doing with that stuff instead of worshipping. It's not because skis or the television or my power saw or the golf clubs or the gun are somehow inherently "incompatible with Christianity", it's that there's no conceivable use for them in a worship service, so why would I bring one?
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 1:59:17 PM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Like I said, it would be no different from taking my skis to church, or holding my television during worship, or my power saw, or a set of golf clubs. It would be distracting for others because there would be no reason for me to stand around holding any of that in a worship service and they would spend their time wondering what I'm doing with that stuff instead of worshipping. It's not because skis or the television or my power saw or the golf clubs or the gun are somehow inherently "incompatible with Christianity", it's that there's no conceivable use for them in a worship service, so why would I bring one?
We could give God a 21 gun salute!  And then the pastor a new roof!
OK, Zhi, I kicked the horse enough and you made your point very well!
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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