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RE: Shepherds Chapel a true teaching of God's word - 7/19/2008 12:21:03 PM
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woodsandfield
Posts: 59
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: p31woman
We read and studied the Bible intensely, the leader said "Don't believe me - read the Bible and prove it to yourselves!", and we did... yet we were still deceived.
I couldn't believe this when I read it. You're telling new christians and everyone else, that reading your Bible can lead to deception.
NO, when you ask God for wisdom he will give it to you without rebuke.
You were deceived because you followed a man and/ or he said what you wanted to hear. ( itching ears )
I follow Christ Jesus and the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I read the Bible for truth and wisdom.
Drweeks, I initially started this thread because I was deeply offended by someone on the other SC thread calling PM a racist. The charge was such an outright lie and so easily checked out that I just blew my top on this thread. I felt I was between a rock and a hard place because some of these people in this forum I will bet you money are not even Christians but say they are. They are judgemental and hostile, not at all like Christians.
Anything you say will be challenged and their mantra is Shepherds Chapel is a cult. Over and over and over.
Disputing them is a giant waste of time and I honestly think they are here to demoralize. Once in a while I check back to see what outrageous thing has been said on this thread but I have given up thinking this is a christian forum.
Take care.
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RE: Shepherds Chapel a true teaching of God's word - 7/19/2008 1:25:52 PM
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drweeks
Posts: 28
Joined: 7/7/2008
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Woodsandfield,
Don't let the few that post on this forum get to you ,there are many many others that just come by and read the post we make, and I believe we are making a difference .If people are wise they can see God really blesses the Shepherds Chapel.The Shepherds Chapel is the largest nondenomational Church in the world.
If you think we are hated now ,just wait until the antichrist gets here and we are delieverd up for a testimony .
13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
May God bless you woodsandfield,you are a true servant
< Message edited by drweeks -- 7/19/2008 3:33:50 PM >
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RE: Shepherds Chapel a true teaching of God's word - 7/19/2008 5:08:25 PM
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woodsandfield
Posts: 59
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drweeks
Woodsandfield,
Don't let the few that post on this forum get to you ,there are many many others that just come by and read the post we make, and I believe we are making a difference .If people are wise they can see God really blesses the Shepherds Chapel.The Shepherds Chapel is the largest nondenomational Church in the world.
If you think we are hated now ,just wait until the antichrist gets here and we are delieverd up for a testimony .
13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
May God bless you woodsandfield,you are a true servant
Thanks, for the charity ( agape christian love ), you are also a true servant, thanks be to God.
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RE: Shepherds Chapel a true teaching of God's word - 7/20/2008 8:46:31 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5398
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: online
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When it comes to Arnold Murray, we can sum it all up by saying that in light of Scripture, he is a false teacher.
He denies the Trinity, he claims Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one in the same, he believes that men were gods who existed prior to living on earth, and he teaches this Anglo-Israelism which holds that the Anglo-Saxons are the chosen race.
There are so many things that I would like to say but here is something that all should know, he says that there are two original Adams, not just one. He says that there is an Adam that was created on the sixth day of the creation week and he is the father of "non-white" races. And then he says that there was an Adam created on the eighth day and he is the father of the Anglo-Saxons, who he says are the ten northern tribes of Israel, who according to Murray populated Europe and then North America.
But how do you know that this false? Well, we have to take these kinds of things and test them in light of Scripture and then hold fast to that which is good.
And just to take the point that I just made.. how do we know that's false? How do we know that there are not two Adams? Well, we can go to Scripture.. and if you go to Acts chapter 17 the Apostle Paul there says, "from one man God made every nation of men that they should inhabit the whole earth. And He determined the time set for them, the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him though He is not far from each one of us."
So the Bible explicitly takes what Arnold Murray has said and shows it to be false.
There are many other problems with the teachings of Arnold Murray including annihilationism. There is no basis whatsoever for believing in annihilationism. This is simply false.
There is such a thing as eternal life. There is also such a thing as eternal damnation.
The Bible clearly communicates that using the same kind of language. Which is to say that if you go back to the words of Jesus - Jesus says that a time is coming when all who are in the graves will come out. Some will rise to live eternally and some will rise to be eternally condemned.
God does not capriciously annihilate the crowning jewels of His creation. No, He continues to sustain their existence, even if they have chosen to live their lives apart from Him.
So again on this count and many others this is a false teacher.
We need to become so familiar with truth when it comes to essential Christian doctrine that you'll never again be fooled by the likes of a Benny Hinn or an Arnold Murray.
These are false teachers, false prophets propagating a false spirituality that has no basis whatsoever in the purview of the orthodox historic Christian faith.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Shepherds Chapel a true teaching of God's word - 7/20/2008 11:10:18 PM
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drweeks
Posts: 28
Joined: 7/7/2008
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Earthless,
It's sounds like you just look things up on 'google search' and believe everything you read .First off ,Pastor Murray does teach the trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit .Second, Men were not gods in the first earth age, they were God's children, not gods themselves.Check out scriptures below for documentation that there were people on the earth before the earth became void and without form in Gen.1:2
'without form' in the verses below means: a place of chaos
'void' in the verses below means: wasteland
In Gen.1:1 God created the Heaven and earth perfect. Verse two God destroyed it because of satan's rebellion.
Isaiah 45
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Notice that in verse 18 the word 'vain' means: wasteland .God created the earth to be inhabited.In the scriptures below you see the destruction of the world that was.You will see that they were men on the earth before, and even cities, this is a long time before Adam & Eve.
Jeremiah 4
4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Man was destroyed in this great shaking and also the cities were destroyed .Got to go but will address other issues later
< Message edited by drweeks -- 7/21/2008 6:03:22 AM >
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RE: Shepherds Chapel a true teaching of God's word - 7/21/2008 7:50:46 AM
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earthless
Posts: 5398
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: online
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drweeks,
I am an author and involved in apologetics ministry. So no, it's not just a matter of me Googling things and then pasting onto a message board. But thank you for your concern - none of that changes what Arnold Murray is and what he has taught for years.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Shepherds Chapel a true teaching of God's word - 7/21/2008 8:08:32 AM
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earthless
Posts: 5398
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: woodsandfield
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
When it comes to Arnold Murray, we can sum it all up by saying that in light of Scripture, he is a false teacher.
"we" ? Shepherds Chapel has many people that study with him.
Where is it in the Bible that we can judge another man's servant?
Chapter and verse, please, so I can look it up.
If I recall Christ said to judge not lest ye be judged as you will be judged with the same measure.
Since Christ died on the cross for our sins and suffered so much, he is judge not this " we " group.
The Apostle Paul instructed Timothy, we are to zealously guard the purity of the message God has entrusted to us, and for good reason (1 Timothy 1:18-19; 6:20; 2 Timothy 4:2-5).
We read in such passages as Acts chapter 20, and 2 Peter chapter 2, that false teachers will arise, bringing with them destructive heresies, distorting the truth and destroying the faith of some. Moreover, friend, it is clear that these teachers will come not only from outside the church, but also from within the body of Christ as well.
It is therefore imperative that we test all things by Scripture (1 Thessolanians 5:21).
It was in this spirit that the Bereans examined the words of the Apostle Paul, for which they were reckoned as noble in character (Acts 17:11). Indeed, not only can the Bible be used for preaching, teaching and encouragement, but it is equally valuable for correcting and rebuking (2 Timothy 4:2).
As a matter of fact, we as Christians are held accountable for proclaiming the whole will of God, warning others of false teachings. (Acts 20:26-28; Ezekiel 33:7-0; 34:1-10)
This is not merely a suggestion, it is, in fact, a divine mandate. Of course if heresies are coming from teachers within the church, we ought to try and approach them first with our concerns.
Should that fail to resolve the problem, we are told in Matthew 18 to expose their errors to the church; and if need be, divulge their names. (1 Timothy 1:20; 2 Timothy 2:17-18; 4:14-15; 3 John 9-10).
We would, therefore, do well to heed Scripture's explicit warning to be on guard for false teachings (Romans 16:17-18; 1 Timothy 1:3-4; 4:16; 2 Timothy 1:13-14; Titus 1:9; 2:1), and to point them out to brothers and sisters in Christ (2 Timothy 4:6).
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Shepherds Chapel a true teaching of God's word - 7/21/2008 8:29:23 AM
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earthless
Posts: 5398
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: woodsandfield
In John it says the Father and I are one, if you've seen Christ, you've seen the Father.
The Tri-une nature of God, the Trinity is codified all throughout the context of Scripture. Denying it is denying the living God revealed in Scripture. Murray denies the historic doctrine of the Trinity. Instead of saying there are three eternal persons in the Godhead he says that they are three offices. This is what is called modalism which was condemned as heresy by the early Church in the mid second and third century. (All three are eternal persons and the Father- Son- and Holy Spirit simultaneously exist.)
But we already have a one stop thread for that discussion, so please feel free to join us there and address what has already been presented.
quote:
ORIGINAL: woodsandfield
No, he never taught that people were " gods ". Either you lie deliberately or have misunderstood. I suggest you check your facts out before slandering a pastor.
Slander would mean to speak falsely of an individual. That is not a light charge to throw around and one that does not hold when in his audio tape #436 & tape #146 Murray teaches, in regard to Genesis 1:26, that God “spoke to the Elohim, meaning God and his children, let us make that man in our image, which is to say make it look in likeness that we are. Do you appear as your soul appeared in the world that was…I told you, that God said, ‘In our image, our likeness,’ the Elohim were standing there, they were from before.” (Tape #146) “We were always with [God] until you were born into this earth.” ( Tape #436)
quote:
ORIGINAL: woodsandfield
He never teaches that. I never heard him teach that and I've been listening for years.
Tape #436, Newsletter #193, Nov. 1994, Commentary in The Shepherd's Bible, Gravette, Ar: Shepherd's Chapel, 1979 quoted by Jason Barker profile -Watchman Fellowship, & Newsletter #151 - there are more but those are the references I have handy in my Arnold Murray file.
quote:
ORIGINAL: woodsandfield
You hate him because he tells that christians can tell pastors by their fruits, evil fruit means evil teachers.
Where did I ever say I "hate" him? I am simply obeying God's Word and judging his teachings, his claims in light of Scripture and holding to that which is good.
quote:
ORIGINAL: woodsandfield
What about your pastor, who ( if anyone ) do you study with?
I am currently attending two different churches due to my writing schedule - both of those have been listed in the past. Actually just last week, so feel free to start a thread on them if you want.
quote:
ORIGINAL: woodsandfield
Yada, yada, yada.
Some people have all day to spend at their computer.
And some people don't and some people just type a lot faster than others.
quote:
ORIGINAL: woodsandfield
It would take hours upon hours to document to earthless's liking that all what he says is false.
Anything and everything I post is open for judgment with the Word of God. So please do so, I am always open for correction, rebuke and instruction with the Word of God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: woodsandfield
It was done in another thread anyway , and it probably wasn't even read!
earthless and the rest document nothing.
Nothing to your liking.
quote:
ORIGINAL: woodsandfield
So you document, spending hours upon hours document your claim against Pastor Murray.
Where did he say all this: chapter, verse, video number, I want dates and times, No stone left unturned.
I just did so above, so I hope you seek out the sources listed and study them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: woodsandfield
We should make lying about pastors and spreading lies on the internet unprofitable.
How would you go about doing that? Especially when your charge doesn't hold in this instance.
quote:
ORIGINAL: woodsandfield
I believe you people are racists,
Why would I be a racist? Please explain.
quote:
ORIGINAL: woodsandfield
believe in the rapture theory,
believe in begging for money at every turn,
Where have I ever asked for or collected a single penny for being a Christian?
quote:
ORIGINAL: woodsandfield
don't want people reading
the bible with understanding.
This I believe firmly.
Now you go prove me wrong.
I believe I have, good day.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Shepherds Chapel a true teaching of God's word - 7/21/2008 9:59:53 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5023
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drweeks
If people are wise they can see God really blesses the Shepherds Chapel.The Shepherds Chapel is the largest nondenomational Church in the world.
Wow, I had no idea that Murray was teaching his heresy to that many folks; sad, very sad.
Funny though that it seems the building is a little small to be the worlds largest.
Maybe you are right about folks bothering mr. Murray; as Jesus spoke this;
(Mat 15:14) Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Shepherds Chapel a true teaching of God's word - 7/21/2008 10:31:50 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2130
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
I am doing what Pastor Murray said to do, he states it over and over.
Read the Bible; don't trust " this man or any man" he says, check out what he says.
That's what I am doing, checking him out.
No one needs you or carm check out PM. I have a good Bible to check out God's word.
You never really addressed the points that earthless presented, and from the appearance it seems that you are intent on taking PM's opinion over the word of God.
quote:
No, he never taught that people were " gods ". Either you lie deliberately or have misunderstood. I suggest you check your facts out before slandering a pastor.
quote:
Slander would mean to speak falsely of an individual. That is not a light charge to throw around and one that does not hold when in his audio tape #436 & tape #146 Murray teaches, in regard to Genesis 1:26, that God “spoke to the Elohim, meaning God and his children, let us make that man in our image, which is to say make it look in likeness that we are. Do you appear as your soul appeared in the world that was…I told you, that God said, ‘In our image, our likeness,’ the Elohim were standing there, they were from before.” (Tape #146) “We were always with [God] until you were born into this earth.” ( Tape #436)
Where does that say, " we were gods?"
In fact I remember PM answering a question about that and he said that we are God's children but not gods.
Your tape reference means nothing. So he establishes that we with God before we were born, that is not heresy. It isn't what you teach, no doubt, but that does not make it wrong.
Exactly what do you teach/believe?
In Ge. 1:26, it does not say that 'God said to Elohim', it says that 'and God (Elohim) said ...' The words are identical to 'and God said' in Ge. 1:3. It is Elohim that is speaking, Elohim does not refer to God's children. Almost ever reference to God in Ge. 1 is by the title Elohim. In Ge. 1:1 'In the beginning God (Elohim) created ...' Ge. 1:3 'And God (Elohim) said ...." Ge. 1:4 'And God (Elohim) saw ...', 'And God (Elohim) divided ...' Ge. 1:5 'And God (Elohim) called ...' etc..., etc..., etc...
Certainly you do not believe that it was God's children who created the heavens and the earth, declared "let there be light", etc... Whether or not you accept that PM was saying that men will be god's or not, there is still no question that what he was teaching is unbiblical, period.
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RE: Shepherds Chapel a true teaching of God's word - 7/21/2008 10:43:10 AM
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Ps103
Posts: 11599
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please discuss this in the thread we already have on Shepherd's Chapel.
HERE
Thanks!
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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