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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/17/2008 8:53:36 AM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
She will be guilty of early termination of a "pregnancy". Perhaps review of the definition of "pregnant" is in order. When someone is pregnant a child is forthcoming. It is not here. When someone makes a "pregnant pause" in a speech, their words have not been heard. They are forthcoming. When a woman is pregnant a person is forthcoming. He or she is not here. Just because we know what will come of the pregnancy, that does not give us the right to regard every intermediate stage of the pregnancy as being "worthy of the same rights as a born child". We also know what will come of sex but we don't regard contraception as murder. Until mother and child are two, mother is one, and therefore able to decide for herself.
But during your "pregnant pause", is there still a thought forming in your head? It may not yet be viable, but is it a thought, nonetheless? If someone interrupts you during your pause, and you never get your thought out, does that mean your thought wasn't really a thought, after all???
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/17/2008 2:47:59 PM
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wayward1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
She will be guilty of early termination of a "pregnancy". Perhaps review of the definition of "pregnant" is in order. When someone is pregnant a child is forthcoming. It is not here. When someone makes a "pregnant pause" in a speech, their words have not been heard. They are forthcoming. When a woman is pregnant a person is forthcoming. He or she is not here. Just because we know what will come of the pregnancy, that does not give us the right to regard every intermediate stage of the pregnancy as being "worthy of the same rights as a born child". We also know what will come of sex but we don't regard contraception as murder. Until mother and child are two, mother is one, and therefore able to decide for herself.
But during your "pregnant pause", is there still a thought forming in your head?
Yes. I'll even grant you that the thought may be fully formed and, in speech at least, withheld for dramatic effect, but it is still known only by me.
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It may not yet be viable, but is it a thought, nonetheless?
I'll go you one better. I'll grant also that we can work this metaphor from the assumption that the thought is fully viable and ready to be spoken. With this assumption we can still realize the metaphor's explanatory power.
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If someone interrupts you during your pause, and you never get your thought out, does that mean your thought wasn't really a thought, after all???
No, my thought was still a fully viable, fully formed, "thought". But here's where your approach breaks down. My thoughts cannot be abused by others. My words can. Once spoken, my words become entities of their own. If written they can be twisted and taken out of context or burned in books or even used against me at some future date when I change my mind and say something that contradicts with those words I spoke so long ago.
So long as they remain in my head, they are mine and only mine, to do with as I please. Though I do not advocate a policy of "allowing women to do with their unborn child as they please". I also do not advocate calling these women murderers.
Listen, this subject is about where we draw this line. It is currently drawn at the moment of birth. Many would prefer to have it drawn at conception. It has to be drawn somewhere, I agree. Every abortion is a tragedy. That is for certain. When you move the line left of the moment of birth though you violate what I feel to be a sacred oneness of mother and child. You effectively "TAKE" responsibility away from mothers and give it to the state.
What if the mother miscarries? Do we launch an investigation into her eating, sleeping, drinking and partying habits to see if possible manslaughter charges can be brought up on her?
If the mother is not one with her child, then what is to stop us from applying ALL parenting rules to the mothers of children still in the womb? If she smokes or drinks or remains in an abusive relationship what is to stop us from extracting the child from the mother early, and by force, under the rules of any child protective services institution?
I'm sorry, it's hard for me to swallow too, but a woman must be regarded as one being until her child becomes a separate being. Or else we are on very dangerous territory.
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/17/2008 3:17:16 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 411
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
What if the mother miscarries? Do we launch an investigation into her eating, sleeping, drinking and partying habits to see if possible manslaughter charges can be brought up on her?
If the mother is not one with her child, then what is to stop us from applying ALL parenting rules to the mothers of children still in the womb? If she smokes or drinks or remains in an abusive relationship what is to stop us from extracting the child from the mother early, and by force, under the rules of any child protective services institution?
I'm sorry, it's hard for me to swallow too, but a woman must be regarded as one being until her child becomes a separate being. Or else we are on very dangerous territory.
The most dangerous territory I can imagine is pretending to be God...just ask Satan (well, ask him after he's thrown into the pit!) I believe "personhood" begins at conception...it's at that point that everything is in place for life to exist. But for those that aren't sure about when personhood begins, it's best to err on the side of caution...to keep everyone out of dangerous territory.
As for a woman's behavior during pregnancy, there have been cases where it's mattered. I've known of women who continued drug use through pregnancy, then had the child taken from her at birth (even before some would say she's had the chance to prove her ability as a mother). Now...was the damage done during pregnancy and the development of that baby? Or was it done at birth?
As for mother and child being one until birth...any woman who's had a baby will tell you that is not an accurate statement...or they will lie. An unborn baby will often not sleep when the mother wants to sleep, keeping the mother awake against her will. That mother can eat something spicy and, although it doesn't bother her, the baby will become very restless. Does that sound like the action of "just another part" of a person? Any woman, who is honest and has carried a baby long enough to "feel" it, will tell you it is a distinct person from herself.
And that doesn't even touch on the medical studies and cases that have been documented. Mothers that have, for some reason, been rendered comatose and still have a moving, growing baby inside them? Just one person???
Need a biblical example? John the Baptist? What did he already know that his mother didn't yet know?
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/17/2008 3:45:29 PM
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wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
What if the mother miscarries? Do we launch an investigation into her eating, sleeping, drinking and partying habits to see if possible manslaughter charges can be brought up on her?
If the mother is not one with her child, then what is to stop us from applying ALL parenting rules to the mothers of children still in the womb? If she smokes or drinks or remains in an abusive relationship what is to stop us from extracting the child from the mother early, and by force, under the rules of any child protective services institution?
I'm sorry, it's hard for me to swallow too, but a woman must be regarded as one being until her child becomes a separate being. Or else we are on very dangerous territory.
The most dangerous territory I can imagine is pretending to be God...just ask Satan (well, ask him after he's thrown into the pit!) I believe "personhood" begins at conception...it's at that point that everything is in place for life to exist. But for those that aren't sure about when personhood begins, it's best to err on the side of caution...to keep everyone out of dangerous territory.
As for a woman's behavior during pregnancy, there have been cases where it's mattered. I've known of women who continued drug use through pregnancy, then had the child taken from her at birth (even before some would say she's had the chance to prove her ability as a mother). Now...was the damage done during pregnancy and the development of that baby? Or was it done at birth?
As for mother and child being one until birth...any woman who's had a baby will tell you that is not an accurate statement...or they will lie. An unborn baby will often not sleep when the mother wants to sleep, keeping the mother awake against her will. That mother can eat something spicy and, although it doesn't bother her, the baby will become very restless. Does that sound like the action of "just another part" of a person? Any woman, who is honest and has carried a baby long enough to "feel" it, will tell you it is a distinct person from herself.
And that doesn't even touch on the medical studies and cases that have been documented. Mothers that have, for some reason, been rendered comatose and still have a moving, growing baby inside them? Just one person???
Need a biblical example? John the Baptist? What did he already know that his mother didn't yet know?
I should have said "one until birth" for the purposes of establishing when the child gets its own full protection from the state. No one aborts viable babies just prior to birth. In fact abortion doctors generally refuse to do the procedure any later than a very early time in the pregnancy. Should it be earlier? probably. Should it be not at all? Probably.
It's a tricky subject. I'm constantly pulled toward the notion of drawing the line at conception. It just seems like the right thing to do, because that is going to be a person. It's just that imposing our own moral and ethical decisions on other humans is shaky territory. There is no doubt about it when the person is a separate person, out of its mother and onto the world stage to live its life. But the line blurs between conception and birth.
I don't like the subject at all. I think it's a horrible thing to have to figure out, but I support the decisions that have been made so far because they are the decisions that are the best compromise between violating women and protecting unborn children.
I assure you though, to the OP, the answer IS NOT to declare it murder when a women gets an abortion.
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/17/2008 4:48:22 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6265
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: ConstantReader
Oh, and another question:
In this grand, glorious plan of yours *SARCASM*, would Christian women (who have been forgiven of this sin) be included in this punishment?
The Christians women should be the first ones in line since above all they should understand what they have done...
John
Well, if that happens, then who would you recommend be best suited to talk women out of getting illegal abortions? Who would be best suited to talk to women who are suffering a crises due to their past mistake of getting an abortion?
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/17/2008 7:40:30 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4377
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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All of the women who have aborted their infants, be brought to trial and condemned, provided the father of this child also be brought forth for his part in creating and then allowing the abortion to happen. He, also being condemned for his act and/or lack of acting. Both, male and female being charged with murder.
Some children are aborted against the wishes of the father...
John
And some men (fathers raise their children instead of hiring someone to murder them) force women into abortion clinics.
I believe we all know this... So your point?
John
Just pointing out the fact. Not all men are innocent in the abortion issue.
Of course they are not, though someone made the point that all are guilty...
John
In many abortion cases these men were guilty of premarital sex, adultery or rape..... or maybe a combination.
It takes two for premarital sex, adultery... Rape doesn't account for many abortions....
John
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/17/2008 7:45:23 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4377
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
What does whether she betrayed you have to do with whether or not she is guilty of murder?
It makes what she did worse over that of a stranger... Much in the manner Judas' actions were considered worse....
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And the fact that you can't carry a child certainly doesn't have any bearing on what is right or wrong, but it has bearing on how loudly your voice should be heard, or how weighted your vote should be for the simple fact that you can never ever have the frame of reference needed to empathize with a mother.
According to what? Bible? The cool guy down the street said so?
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Perhaps you do, perhaps you don't.
I don't...
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True, and it's secular land that makes to rules isn't it?
Making the rules doesn't equate to declaring what is truly right and wrong...
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Then what is the need for you to consider them guilty of murder at all?
50,000,000+ and counting dead children for a start... The fact that people believe it's ok to do so...
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I'm not sure I follow you. This is suggestive of a misogynistic attitude. Perhaps I misunderstood. Perhaps you are suggesting women would be unwilling or unable to accurately assess the situation and deal with it.
Perhaps I think it's absurd to believe this is a ladies only issue...
John
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/17/2008 7:49:51 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6265
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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All of the women who have aborted their infants, be brought to trial and condemned, provided the father of this child also be brought forth for his part in creating and then allowing the abortion to happen. He, also being condemned for his act and/or lack of acting. Both, male and female being charged with murder.
Some children are aborted against the wishes of the father...
John
And some men (fathers raise their children instead of hiring someone to murder them) force women into abortion clinics.
I believe we all know this... So your point?
John
Just pointing out the fact. Not all men are innocent in the abortion issue.
Of course they are not, though someone made the point that all are guilty...
John
In many abortion cases these men were guilty of premarital sex, adultery or rape..... or maybe a combination.
It takes two for premarital sex, adultery... Rape doesn't account for many abortions....
John
Which makes most men equally guilty.
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/17/2008 8:32:09 PM
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wayward1
Posts: 231
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
What does whether she betrayed you have to do with whether or not she is guilty of murder?
It makes what she did worse over that of a stranger... Much in the manner Judas' actions were considered worse....
So your wife is worse than a murderer if she gets an abortion and this is established by her having betrayed you. I'm starting to understand you better now. I'll be moving on soon.
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: wayward1
And the fact that you can't carry a child certainly doesn't have any bearing on what is right or wrong, but it has bearing on how loudly your voice should be heard, or how weighted your vote should be for the simple fact that you can never ever have the frame of reference needed to empathize with a mother.
According to what? Bible? The cool guy down the street said so?
According to common decency and common sense.
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: wayward1
Perhaps you do, perhaps you don't.
I don't...
No, perhaps you do, and perhaps you don't.
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: wayward1
True, and it's secular land that makes to rules isn't it?
Making the rules doesn't equate to declaring what is truly right and wrong...
Well no, but it "equates" to who gets charged with murder and who doesn't. And that is very fortunate for all of us.
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: wayward1
Then what is the need for you to consider them guilty of murder at all?
50,000,000+ and counting dead children for a start... The fact that people believe it's ok to do so...
I don't think anyone just thinks it's "ok". I think it's not ok at all. I just don't think it's murder.
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: wayward1
I'm not sure I follow you. This is suggestive of a misogynistic attitude. Perhaps I misunderstood. Perhaps you are suggesting women would be unwilling or unable to accurately assess the situation and deal with it.
Perhaps I think it's absurd to believe this is a ladies only issue...
John
Not ladies only, just ladies mostly. Our opinions count as about 1/2 each, or our votes should be counted as about equal to half of one of theirs. Roughly, lol.
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/17/2008 9:46:25 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4377
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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All of the women who have aborted their infants, be brought to trial and condemned, provided the father of this child also be brought forth for his part in creating and then allowing the abortion to happen. He, also being condemned for his act and/or lack of acting. Both, male and female being charged with murder.
Some children are aborted against the wishes of the father...
John
And some men (fathers raise their children instead of hiring someone to murder them) force women into abortion clinics.
I believe we all know this... So your point?
John
Just pointing out the fact. Not all men are innocent in the abortion issue.
Of course they are not, though someone made the point that all are guilty...
John
In many abortion cases these men were guilty of premarital sex, adultery or rape..... or maybe a combination.
It takes two for premarital sex, adultery... Rape doesn't account for many abortions....
John
Which makes most men equally guilty.
Guilty of what? premarital sex, adultery?
John
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/17/2008 9:58:22 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 411
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Which makes most men equally guilty.
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Guilty of what? premarital sex, adultery?
John
Ah, ah, ah, John...watch it here. I'm in total agreement with you, but be careful...sin is sin is sin. As much as even I hate to admit it, abortion, adultry, homosexuality, lying...they all carry the same weight with God.
God's law is singular...not plural.
I applaud you, John, for being courageous and knowing why you believe what you believe. I only hope you're as bold in real life!
Even though I know you care more about the Truth than people's opinions, still remember this: if you proclaim the Truth, the world will hate you. (John 15:18-19) So be bold! (But use some tact, okay?)
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/17/2008 10:00:46 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4377
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
So your wife is worse than a murderer if she gets an abortion and this is established by her having betrayed you. I'm starting to understand you better now. I'll be moving on soon.
If you don't think a family member doing something like murder or raping a child is worse than a stranger doing it you must not be able to comprehend what betrayal is, and you surely don't understand as it pertains to the word of God...
Btw... See you later...
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According to common decency and common sense.
Common decency? What irony... We have a 50,000,000 mountain of dead unborn children and common decency is about woman have more say over men regarding the murder of unborn children...
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No, perhaps you do, and perhaps you don't.
No it's quite clear, I don't....
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Well no, but it "equates" to who gets charged with murder and who doesn't. And that is very fortunate for all of us.
Not for those who are murdered in the womb...
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I don't think anyone just thinks it's "ok". I think it's not ok at all. I just don't think it's murder.
Many people think it's ok... Even on this forum... What sin is being committed that you are no ok with it, if it's not murder?
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Not ladies only, just ladies mostly. Our opinions count as about 1/2 each, or our votes should be counted as about equal to half of one of theirs. Roughly, lol.
What about the vote/opinion of the unborn?
John
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/17/2008 10:07:07 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4377
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Ah, ah, ah, John...watch it here. I'm in total agreement with you, but be careful...sin is sin is sin. As much as even I hate to admit it, abortion, adultry, homosexuality, lying...they all carry the same weight with God.
I am not making a case they don't.... The other person is trying to make a case that the sin of premarital sex equates directly to abortion... A man and woman can fornicate, and if the man doesn't want the child to be aborted and she does he's not guilty of taking the child's life...
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God's law is singular...not plural.
I applaud you, John, for being courageous and knowing why you believe what you believe. I only hope you're as bold in real life!
Even though I know you care more about the Truth than people's opinions, still remember this: if you proclaim the Truth, the world will hate you. (John 15:18-19) So be bold! (But use some tact, okay?)
Tact doesn't work when dealing with abortion... People want to pretend that abortion isn't like taking life outside the womb... They always speak in regards to the woman as being troubled, forced and confused.... Tact ends up being appeasement, and the first victim is the truth....
John
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/17/2008 10:11:49 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6265
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Ah, ah, ah, John...watch it here. I'm in total agreement with you, but be careful...sin is sin is sin. As much as even I hate to admit it, abortion, adultery, homosexuality, lying...they all carry the same weight with God.
I am not making a case they don't.... The other person is trying to make a case that the sin of premarital sex equates directly to abortion... A man and woman can fornicate, and if the man doesn't want the child to be aborted and she does he's not guilty of taking the child's life...
More often than not, the man is in agreement with the decision to end the child's life.
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/17/2008 10:14:44 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4377
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Ah, ah, ah, John...watch it here. I'm in total agreement with you, but be careful...sin is sin is sin. As much as even I hate to admit it, abortion, adultery, homosexuality, lying...they all carry the same weight with God.
I am not making a case they don't.... The other person is trying to make a case that the sin of premarital sex equates directly to abortion... A man and woman can fornicate, and if the man doesn't want the child to be aborted and she does he's not guilty of taking the child's life...
More often than not, the man is in agreement with the decision to end the child's life.
So in the cases he shares the same guilt... Ok... Both he and the woman, and the person who did the procedure are guilty of murder... I have no issue with that... Of course we still haven't reached the point where in every case the man is guilty as someone posted...
John
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/17/2008 10:18:14 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 411
Joined: 6/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Ah, ah, ah, John...watch it here. I'm in total agreement with you, but be careful...sin is sin is sin. As much as even I hate to admit it, abortion, adultery, homosexuality, lying...they all carry the same weight with God.
I am not making a case they don't.... The other person is trying to make a case that the sin of premarital sex equates directly to abortion... A man and woman can fornicate, and if the man doesn't want the child to be aborted and she does he's not guilty of taking the child's life...
More often than not, the man is in agreement with the decision to end the child's life.
I don't have scripture to back it up, but my hunch is that God will hold both mother and father responsible for the murder of a baby. Granted, the father may not even be aware of the abortion, but leaving after the "act" and/or failing to accept responsibility, further compounds the sin and makes him culpable. Again, I have no solid scripture...just a feeling I have.
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