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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/17/2008 10:30:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3430
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
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ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Ah, ah, ah, John...watch it here. I'm in total agreement with you, but be careful...sin is sin is sin. As much as even I hate to admit it, abortion, adultery, homosexuality, lying...they all carry the same weight with God.
I am not making a case they don't.... The other person is trying to make a case that the sin of premarital sex equates directly to abortion... A man and woman can fornicate, and if the man doesn't want the child to be aborted and she does he's not guilty of taking the child's life...
More often than not, the man is in agreement with the decision to end the child's life.
I don't have scripture to back it up, but my hunch is that God will hold both mother and father responsible for the murder of a baby. Granted, the father may not even be aware of the abortion, but leaving after the "act" and/or failing to accept responsibility, further compounds the sin and makes him culpable. Again, I have no solid scripture...just a feeling I have.
If the father bails on his family he's consider worse than a the infidel so that would cover it for the most part, and I agree in the above case by bailing he's making himself culpable...
John
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/17/2008 10:35:07 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 5964
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Ah, ah, ah, John...watch it here. I'm in total agreement with you, but be careful...sin is sin is sin. As much as even I hate to admit it, abortion, adultery, homosexuality, lying...they all carry the same weight with God.
I am not making a case they don't.... The other person is trying to make a case that the sin of premarital sex equates directly to abortion... A man and woman can fornicate, and if the man doesn't want the child to be aborted and she does he's not guilty of taking the child's life...
More often than not, the man is in agreement with the decision to end the child's life.
So in the cases he shares the same guilt... OK... Both he and the woman, and the person who did the procedure are guilty of murder... I have no issue with that... Of course we still haven't reached the point where in every case the man is guilty as someone posted...
John
You sure do have an awful lot of compassion for the very few men who had no say. Too bad you can't show that same compassion for the women who are hurting now because of abortion.
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/17/2008 10:44:54 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3430
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Ah, ah, ah, John...watch it here. I'm in total agreement with you, but be careful...sin is sin is sin. As much as even I hate to admit it, abortion, adultery, homosexuality, lying...they all carry the same weight with God.
I am not making a case they don't.... The other person is trying to make a case that the sin of premarital sex equates directly to abortion... A man and woman can fornicate, and if the man doesn't want the child to be aborted and she does he's not guilty of taking the child's life...
More often than not, the man is in agreement with the decision to end the child's life.
So in the cases he shares the same guilt... OK... Both he and the woman, and the person who did the procedure are guilty of murder... I have no issue with that... Of course we still haven't reached the point where in every case the man is guilty as someone posted...
John
You sure do have an awful lot of compassion for the very few men who had no say. Too bad you can't show that same compassion for the women who are hurting now because of abortion.
Not believing they took part in the murder of child isn't showing compassion, it's being honest...
Is this thread about the women who actually do have remorse for what they did?
Do I have to mention them in every post?
Btw... Just what are you debating here?
John
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 12:30:14 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 1812
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
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quote:
I don't buy they struggle at all with it...
Well then there's nothing more to say to you about this then.
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Deb
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 12:36:01 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
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From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: McFatty
I don't see why they wouldn't, unless it was proven self defense.
I have seen the agrument for self defense in regards to abortion... It's wonderful to read one making the argument that the unborn is with malice attempting to kill the mother...
John
"with malice" was never a part of the issue.
If it's medically proven that the mother (and perhaps also the child) will die because of this pregnancy, how can it not be self defense? This doesn't have to be a harsh, impatient, "I'm completely right and you're completely wrong" argument. This can be a civilized discussion. It is possible!
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 12:53:10 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3430
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I don't see why they wouldn't, unless it was proven self defense.
I have seen the agrument for self defense in regards to abortion... It's wonderful to read one making the argument that the unborn is with malice attempting to kill the mother...
John
"with malice" was never a part of the issue.
If it's medically proven that the mother (and perhaps also the child) will die because of this pregnancy, how can it not be self defense? This doesn't have to be a harsh, impatient, "I'm completely right and you're completely wrong" argument. This can be a civilized discussion. It is possible!
Well if we are going to play this game the child didn't come into the picture on it own so if they are both going to die why is considers the child's fault automatically? Does the child end up on the short end simply because it can't pay someone to kill the other person?
The idea of self defense normally entails wrong doing on the part of the other person...
John
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 3:24:16 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
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From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I don't see why they wouldn't, unless it was proven self defense.
I have seen the agrument for self defense in regards to abortion... It's wonderful to read one making the argument that the unborn is with malice attempting to kill the mother...
John
"with malice" was never a part of the issue.
If it's medically proven that the mother (and perhaps also the child) will die because of this pregnancy, how can it not be self defense? This doesn't have to be a harsh, impatient, "I'm completely right and you're completely wrong" argument. This can be a civilized discussion. It is possible!
Well if we are going to play this game the child didn't come into the picture on it own so if they are both going to die why is considers the child's fault automatically? Does the child end up on the short end simply because it can't pay someone to kill the other person?
The idea of self defense normally entails wrong doing on the part of the other person...
John
I'm not playing games, though you may be.
"Self defense" was simply a way to say what I was saying. Please don't get stuck on my semantics.
You're saying it's morally better, again, if medically proven, to let both mother and child die than to save the mother's life?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 3:31:56 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 337
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
You're saying it's morally better, again, if medically proven, to let both mother and child die than to save the mother's life?
God's big enough to save both lives, if it's His will. After the doctor's have given it their best shot, let's get out of the way just let God do His job.
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 3:39:59 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2279
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From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
You're saying it's morally better, again, if medically proven, to let both mother and child die than to save the mother's life?
I think about this with ectopics. Ectopics can indeed survive, but not often. Most of the time they kill both the mother and baby. But many think it's okay to terminate an ectopic to save the mother's life, when really, there is a very slim chance both could live. I wonder why some Christians who are anti-abortion think it's okay to terminate an ectopic instead of leaving it up to God or leaving it alone, especially since there is that chance that both could come out alright. I know that's actually been discussed in some threads, but no one answers that question usually.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 3:52:04 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
You're saying it's morally better, again, if medically proven, to let both mother and child die than to save the mother's life?
God's big enough to save both lives, if it's His will. After the doctor's have given it their best shot, let's get out of the way just let God do His job.
God could reveal Himself to everyone on His own, if it were His will. But instead we are to spread the Gospel. Sometimes humans have to act.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 3:53:56 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
I wonder why some Christians who are anti-abortion think it's okay to terminate an ectopic instead of leaving it up to God or leaving it alone, especially since there is that chance that both could come out alright.
What is the percentage for the survival of the mother? It is fractional. The medical field is a blessing in many regards. The survival rate during pregnancy is awesome compared to 100 years ago. At that point, the mother and child would both die. What should we do now? Let both die or save one?
That's my thought. If it can be medically proven beyond a reasonable doubt that without the surgery, the mother and child would both die, but with the surgery, the mother survives, what is the issue? I'm talking only about this very specific scenario.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 4:00:30 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2279
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
I wonder why some Christians who are anti-abortion think it's okay to terminate an ectopic instead of leaving it up to God or leaving it alone, especially since there is that chance that both could come out alright.
What is the percentage for the survival of the mother? It is fractional. The medical field is a blessing in many regards. The survival rate during pregnancy is awesome compared to 100 years ago. At that point, the mother and child would both die. What should we do now? Let both die or save one?
Both could live; both could die; one could live. But the chance for everything to come out well exists. I hear some Christians saying no to abortion no matter what... yet an ectopic can be terminated (to them). It's not so much that the survival rate isn't great (I know it's very low)... but that I hear Christians say that it is ALWAYS wrong to abort, yet it's fine to them to abort an ectopic pregnancy that has a chance to live. Or is it going by numbers to some (e.g. if the mother has x chance of surviving, abortion is okay; otherwise it's wrong)? Even if the survival rate is low, the baby and/or mother has a chance, but removing the embryo (if it's alive) is still killing it. So is killing the embryo wrong, or is it just wrong when the survival rate falls below a certain point?
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 4:03:43 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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solo,
I'm not talking about when there's a chance that either one could live. If that's the case, let it go. But sometimes (very rarely), it's inevitable that they both die if everything remains the same. I'm speaking of those very limited circumstances only.
For the record, I have never heard the word "ectopic", so I can't fully answer your question.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 4:13:40 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2279
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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McFatty, I wasn't really addressing anyone specifically (although I think I quoted people). It's just one of those abortion questions that never seems to get a decent answer in a thread here. :)
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 4:32:52 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 5964
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
I don't buy they struggle at all with it...
Well then there's nothing more to say to you about this then.
Which is why I'm choosing to ignore SovereignisHe in this thread.
Solo- you bring up a good point. I'll have to think about that.
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 6:04:10 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 1812
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
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quote:
I hear some Christians saying no to abortion no matter what... yet an ectopic can be terminated (to them)
There are always exceptions. I've never heard of an ectopic pregancy being transplanted into a uterus. Is this possible? I'm all for reversing Roe v Wade as long as there are excetions.
_____________________________
Deb
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 6:52:02 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2279
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From: I'm a Southern girl
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Not as far as I know. They can survive outside the uterus on other structures, but I've only heard of one ovarian baby surviving (both mother and child). I would think she would have terminated, but if I remember correctly, the pregnancy had progressed quite a bit and no one caught that it was in her ovary...even in mid-pregnancy. Most others that survive (that *I* know of) find an alternate blood supply from the mesentary. They can live on the descending aorta (or an adequate blood supply), but I'm not sure if any of those have lived. I imagine all of those probably would kill the mother and themselves, at least the mother because it's difficult to separate the plecenta without maternal damage (if it's misplaced) once it's hooked to whatever source it found.
I'm not really looking at it from a legal standpoint, but from a moral one. If there's an exception because of the risk/low survival rate, then would a woman who has a "normal" but high-risk pregnancy that is euqivalent to that of an ectopic pregnancy be able to get one?
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 7:35:29 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 9277
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ConstantReader
It would seem you have little understanding of the term "free will." That is, the choice God grants people.
And the conclusion of those choices aren't exactly a warm fuzzy, either.
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I'm bringing sleazy back.
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