|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/21/2008 12:13:29 PM
|
|
|
CCCdnt
Posts: 351
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
That is the fact that you cannot possibly know for sure if I will ever face God. If you continue to assert that you do know for sure that I will one day face your God, I will have absolutely no intellectually justifiable choice left but to utterly ignore you.
After reading what you have written here, there is probably little point in my responding to you regarding my other post. I was going to again suggest that discussion go to the God folder since it is off-topic. Why would you expect a Christian to say anything other than that you will one day for sure face God? Christians believe God exists. They "know" for sure that God exists. I do not speak in terms of "if" God exists, but in terms that God "does" exist. His Word says that all humans will one day face Him. Therefore, this will happen. If you choose to utterly ignore me based one this, then that is your choice.
(I am not saying that you would never hear otherwise spoken from a professing Christian. Just because someone says he is a Christian does not mean that the person is one or believes what God's Word says.)
_____________________________
http://www.abort73.com
See for Yourself
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/21/2008 4:30:48 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Yes, without a doubt you will face God... What's wrong? Why get hostile towards me... I simply stated you'll get what you are looking for... You should happy... I'd be happy to face God... Though I will not do so as my own advocate..
Hostile? I sincerely did not mean to sound hostile. Perhaps you misunderstood me. I meant only to remind you of something I was certain you were aware. That is the fact that you cannot possibly know for sure if I will ever face God. If you continue to assert that you do know for sure that I will one day face your God, I will have absolutely no intellectually justifiable choice left but to utterly ignore you. It is so intellectually indefensible to claim to "know" such a thing that it ranks right up there with claiming to "know" that the easter bunny is real or Santa or any other unknowable thing we all once "believed" to be real.
Bertrand Russell summed this up as follows: "If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."
This means that "it is tolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt your God". When you say I will meet him "without a doubt". You are simply wrong.
quote:
How much faith do you have in this statement?
None. I have knowledge of its truth.
quote:
What is the foundation for the extremist behavior that devalues life in order to justify killing it to satisfy selfish desires? DOH... I know that answer... The heart of stone and those who walk in the flesh...
John
Fine, so long as you don't forget my point, I'll let you twist it any way you choose.
I believe that you will face God so with a due respect I guess this will be my last post to you. I for one hope God changes your heart and I hope you don't take offense to my sincere hope that He does...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/21/2008 4:46:38 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
Thank you for showing us what's truly in your heart.
What's in my heart is the truth in God's word... Yes, Christian above those who don't believe should be submit to whatever consequences stem from their actions and they shouldn't think that repenting to God and being right with Him wipes away whatever consequences come about...
quote:
How sad that another believer would wish this upon a sister or brother.
Wish what? That they own up to what they did? How sad that anyone would think that repenting to God somehow should automatically absolve one from the actions as if it never happened...
Where is it taught the repenting is a get out of jail free card across the board?
quote:
"There is now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus"
That is ETERNAL condemnation... That verse isn't speaking to temporal consequences for one's actions... If so, you must believe anyone who repents of a crime/sin shouldn't server time...
quote:
Yes, there are consequences to our sins, but God's wrath is for the unbeliever.
While His wrath is for the unbeliever God can chastise His own, even up to death in regards to consequences.
quote:
Please show us with scripture where God has a specific punishment for those who have truely repentant?
David repented and God still took the life of his son for David's actions... Moses repented, yet never made it to the promise land... The thief on the cross repented yet still was justly put to death for his deeds... People sincerely repent and are still sent to prison, rightly so... Repenting makes one right with God eternally, not always temporally...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/21/2008 4:50:50 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
there are necessary evils
Evil nonetheless...
John
So who are you voting for in the elections then?
He wasn't talking about voting, but taking the life of others to save those one who he judged their life to have more value...
I can't vote for Obama because He without a doubt supports the right to murder children, and homosexual agenda... McCain stance on abortion is a lot better... I may be left with no choice...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/21/2008 4:54:02 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
For those who repented... Given what it means to repent I would find it hard to believe they would think that they don't deserve to be punished... In my opinion anyone who repents of abortion, or anything else and believes that alone should hold off punishment isn't really remorseful, they just wanted temporal relief for whatever reason...
Thank you for showing us what's truly in your heart. How sad that another believer would wish this upon a sister or brother.
"There is now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus"
Yes, there are consequences to our sins, but God's wrath is for the unbeliever. Please show us with scripture where God has a specific punishment for those who have truely repentant? And please point out which sins get "speacial" punishment? I know of none.
Thank you Deb!
Yes, thanks for giving me a great post to show that what is eternal and what is temporal are not one in the same and that those who repent shouldn't believe that doing so should ward off having to pay temporal consequences... If God ordains they should escape temporal punishment so be it, but one shouldn't count on it simply because they repented... That's not what repenting is about...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/21/2008 5:38:47 PM
|
|
|
wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I believe that you will face God so with a due respect I guess this will be my last post to you. I for one hope God changes your heart and I hope you don't take offense to my sincere hope that He does...
John
This is a "belief" you can hold without a shred of threat to your intellectual integrity or worthiness as a debate partner.
Thank you for taking the "know" stipulation out. If you had insisted on including it, then this would have been my last post to you as well. Since you have removed it, I see no reason for our interaction to cease. I sincerely apologize if something I wrote made you want to stop talking to me.
If your hope for God to one day change my heart is a sincere one, I can't imagine how you think cutting me off is going to bring that hope to reality any sooner.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/21/2008 5:52:22 PM
|
|
|
wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
After reading what you have written here, there is probably little point in my responding to you regarding my other post. I was going to again suggest that discussion go to the God folder since it is off-topic.
Then I would very much enjoy reading your reply to those other points via private message. I do realize the thread got off track a bit and I apologize. I'll do my best to keep it to the OP specifically in the future. When such a complicated topic is raised though it can be very hard to not delve into many of the surrounding topics.
quote:
Why would you expect a Christian to say anything other than that you will one day for sure face God?
Because it's something they can't possibly know "for sure". It is something they can only reasonably hope for, believe in or have faith in. The fact that they accept it on faith or believe in it absolutely does not make it suddenly become true to any extent that they can be "sure" of it. The absoluteness of their belief doesn't not make the belief equal to knowledge. See my response below to John for more explanation if you're interested..
By asking them to refrain from the use of the word knowledge, I'm not asking them to reduce the absoluteness of the "belief". In fact all it will really serve to do is make non-believers take them more seriously. When believers are careful to make the distinction between faith and knowledge it is MUCH easier for me to be tolerant and accepting of their beliefs. When you tell me you "know" it, I literally equate you with the insane who purport to know all manner of unknowable things with no way of actually knowing them. They are, for all intents and purposes, exactly the same mental process.
quote:
Christians believe God exists.
Vital point here, absolutely vital
quote:
They "know" for sure that God exists.
Ooops, see now with the quotes around it you can "almost" get away with this intellectually. Without them, it's borderline. Just imagine a "Thor" worshiper on your doorstep claiming to know Thor created you and your house was granted to you by Thor's grace, and you should pray to Thor because he knows Thor is the one true God, creator of all things, praise be to Thor, in Thor we trust. Imagine they don't tell you they believe it, but they know it, and you are in grave danger if you don't agree with them. I hope you'll laugh them off your doorstep. I would do the same to you if you used the word "know". If you wanted to talk to me about what you believed I'd invite you in for coffee.
quote:
I do not speak in terms of "if" God exists
I'm sincerely sorry to have to use such absolute terms. I fear they will be received as abrasive as "absolute" terminology often is. I assure you that I don't mean it that way but you should speak in terms of "if" God exists. You should struggle to find ways to speak about your God that emphasizes your faith and not your knowledge. You could simply say something like this: "I believe with all my heart that the almighty creator God has a plan for you, dear sir, and if my beliefs are correct then it is foretold that there will be a day of judgment, and you will get to face God. I want to teach you how to please Him if you're interested".
You don't have to go overboard with assertions of "KNOWLEDGE" like "I KNOW you will face MY God". Asserting that you have such knowledge will turn away the unsaved. Witnessing about the glorious effects of faith in God poses no intellectual stumbling block for a person who isn't yet emboldened by the effects we spoke of just now.
quote:
, but in terms that God "does" exist. His Word says that all humans will one day face Him. Therefore, this will happen. If you choose to utterly ignore me based one this, then that is your choice.
Here's one of those absolute/abrasive bits I'm so nervous about. How about if I chose to ignore you to exactly the same degree that you have chosen to ignore the word of Allah and his 1.6 billion followers who declare just as ardently as you that his word says things, so those things WILL one day happen.
quote:
(I am not saying that you would never hear otherwise spoken from a professing Christian. Just because someone says he is a Christian does not mean that the person is one or believes what God's Word says.)
I was looking for more "empirically justifiable" language just to keep the debate on track. When we discuss morals and ethics regarding human endeavors that are spoken to in the bible we are on shaky territory when we start going on about what we "KNOW" is in the bible. We can't be offering biblical justification for moral and ethical decisions that apply to all people.
At best, biblical justification could be offered for what followers of a certain bible should do, morally or ethically. But it can't speak for people of all creeds, because you wouldn't want the koran speaking for what you should and shouldn't do.
< Message edited by wayward1 -- 7/22/2008 6:59:06 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/21/2008 7:28:28 PM
|
|
|
deborlie
Posts: 63
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
|
I took the time to read most of the posts here on this subject.
Can we put a stop to this war on babies?
John,
You have bravely hung in there for what you believe is right. I have notieced who has stayed in there pleading with you, not to be so condeming, but do use some compassion. That it is not only women that are responsible here. You are not receiving the answer you are looking for. Don't you wonder why?
And, some one asked why threads such as this wind up the sameway?
I take that to mean, nothing but arguing, and finger pointing. Men vs. Women........
I would like to offer my humble thought to all of this, and possibly other threads such as this.
This topic is inflamable and with intention:
I believe these topics are out of the range of human perception and possibly, does not belong within the human realm of things even though humans are the actors.
We know sin when we see it. But we know only what we see. Therefore we blame each other.
Pual offers this:
Eph 6:11 Put on the Whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the
wiles of the devil.
12. FOR WE DO NOT WRESTLE AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD,
but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of
this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly
places.
13. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to
withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Is this what is happening here?
Talking to Satan:
In Genisis 3:15. And I will put enmity (enemy)
Beween you and the woman;
And between your seed and her Seed;
And He shall bruse your head................
Here we emphasize and rightly so, the first prediction of Christ, with joy and thanksgiving.
But, don't neglect the phrase preceeding the prediction.
History has recorded often the massacre of the children of Eve. (Infants and adults)
Some of this we know was to kill Christ before He could complete His mission.
But the enmity continues to this day. Probably for various Satonic reasons.
Reading on:
To Eve:
Gen. 3:16 I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children. (We tend to think labor pain here, but is it?)
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.
He shall rule over you. She will be submissive one in the marital setting........And the fact that he shall rule over the woman actually means he is in charge of protecting her and his children, from all onsloughts, visiable and invisiable. This statement stems from other areas given in the Bible of the roles of men and women. He has the greater responsibility to the family than she does. The fact that Christ is the head of the man, and man the head of the woman has a very real meaning. It is through Christ and your belief in Him, that you will best be able to protect your family against the unseen.
We as Christians need to re-evaluate our positions and realize we are not at war with each other. We need to join sides and rout out the real culprit that is attacking/destroying us and getting at God through us.
I hope this can set a different way of looking at these kinds of issues.
We are at war. whether we like it or not.
There it is for whatever it is worth.
BJ
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/21/2008 7:40:03 PM
|
|
|
DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 8529
Joined: 6/5/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deborlie
Can we put a stop to this war on babies?
As long as unjustified means of abortion is available, that war will persist.
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/21/2008 8:01:02 PM
|
|
|
stampinlady
Posts: 1731
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
Status: offline
|
quote:
Wish what? That they own up to what they did? How sad that anyone would think that repenting to God somehow should automatically absolve one from the actions as if it never happened...
Where is it taught the repenting is a get out of jail free card across the board?
I don't think I said that at all. Don't forget that we will be judged with the same measure we judge others so in that light what would have God do with your sin? Why would you have so much annimosity(sp?) for someone who has been forgiven?
There are many forgiven woman who are living with what they have done and I that is their punishment.
_____________________________
Deb
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/21/2008 8:51:42 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deborlie
Can we put a stop to this war on babies?
Given there are 3500 daily there is way too much profit in it...
quote:
John,
You have bravely hung in there for what you believe is right. I have notieced who has stayed in there pleading with you, not to be so condeming, but do use some compassion.
Compassion for whom? When people don't like that fact I speak frank and honest about the topic they play the compassion card and all of sudden MOST who have abortion struggle with it, yet most who have abortion have had more than one, so that really doesn't jive... Compassion in regards to this topic rarely gets a mention in regards to the victim of every abortion, the child...
I get attacked for stating that above all, Christian should be willing to submit to whatever consequences stem from their actions, not to say that somehow repenting wipes away the temporal consequences because they repented... I cannot believe someone invoke the following,
Now there NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus
in regards to this part of the topic... Imagine a person who claims Christ telling a judge(who God ordained) that he has no right to sentence them because they repented and there is NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus... Imagine David telling God, " You can't take me son, I repented..." And without a doubt David was sorry, repented and was forgiven by God...
quote:
That it is not only women that are responsible here.
I have said nothing to imply anything different and have made the point that others are just as responsible. And of course I believe some woman are bullies and forces in to abortion...
quote:
You are not receiving the answer you are looking for. Don't you wonder why?
Because the first victim of this topic is the sad reality of it.. Unborn children are murdered and most people don't think anything of it, liken to having a wart removed...
quote:
This topic is inflamable and with intention:
I believe these topics are out of the range of human perception and possibly, does not belong within the human realm of things even though humans are the actors.
We know sin when we see it. But we know only what we see. Therefore we blame each other.
What is hidden about the sin of abortion(murder) and the related sins that typical surround it? Other than the desire of some to keep it hidden? Our view isn't that cloudy...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/21/2008 9:11:18 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
I don't think I said that at all.
That is what you argued... I spoke of temporal consequences and you replied in the eternal context, to the point where you spoke of the condition of my heart... Yet, it's clear you are not arguing in the proper context. I haven't said anything about those who repent in respects to their eternal standing with God. I believe people have repented for abortion and praise God, yet that doesn't automatically wipe the slate clean below what is eternal...
quote:
Don't forget that we will be judged with the same measure we judge others so in that light what would have God do with your sin?
If you really believe that shouldn't you believe that all who take life unjustly in or outside the womb should be judged in with the same measure? Don't you believe we should JUDGE life in the womb with the same measure we do outside the womb in regards to it's value?
As for me... What judgment have a passed by declaring those who unjustly take live have broken the 5th Commandment? Their actions speak to the truth of the matter. I don't condemn them, what they did takes care of that...
quote:
Why would you have so much annimosity(sp?) for someone who has been forgiven?
I don't... You only believe I do because of your (posted) skewed view of things... You can't fathom that a Christian should be willing to submit to whatever consequences stems from their actions and why I really don't know... You posted a verse that strictly deals with the eternal so I don't where you are coming from since I have never said that a person who aborts a child is hell bound, or not saved... I was clearly speaking of temporal consequences and you introduced a eternal argument...
If I murdered someone and repented to God for it and attempted to use that as some way of getting out of the temporal consequences I believe even those who don't believe God would think my repenting was simply done to avoid dealing with what I have done... The first thing about repentance is to understand full well what one has done, owning up to it, praying to God for forgiven, seeking the forgiveness of those I have offended and humbly accepting whatever comes in the way of punishment...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/21/2008 9:23:32 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
This is a "belief" you can hold without a shred of threat to your intellectual integrity or worthiness as a debate partner.
It's a belief that no debate can shake... It's not I but what is in me that holds me upright... My worth is liken to a vapor and apart from the grace of God I not worthy to invoke His name... That's how far beyond help I am in your way of thinking... I am a sheep and I thank God daily to be consider a member of the flock...
quote:
Thank you for taking the "know" stipulation out. If you had insisted on including it, then this would have been my last post to you as well. Since you have removed it, I see no reason for our interaction to cease.
I am sorry you got the impression I slacked off on my belief, I thought I was rather clear...
quote:
I sincerely apologize if something I wrote made you want to stop talking to me.
I was merely honoring your words...
You said:
If you continue to assert that you do know for sure that I will one day face your God, I will have absolutely no intellectually justifiable choice left but to utterly ignore you.
quote:
If your hope for God to one day change my heart is a sincere one, I can't imagine how you think cutting me off is going to bring that hope to reality any sooner.
Though to be honest I really don't see how much more conversation between us can be edifying. In truth you believe I am intellectually depraved and I believe.... Well I'll just hold my tongue and let your own words stand. I may respond to something you post, but I am not sure there would be much point in do so...
Btw... There is a time for everything even cutting people off... And that goes for those who believe and don't believe with the hope they repent and come back...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/21/2008 11:39:19 PM
|
|
|
fallenstar
Posts: 127
Joined: 11/29/2007
Status: offline
|
If abortion is murder, and it is against the ten commandments to not murder, then Christian women and men should not be allowed to serve in the military and fight in a war, all Christians should be vegetarian, and no Christian should support the death penalty. Don't even tell me "I don't believe in murder" if you can kill a grown adult. Even if they "deserve it", you can't if you truly practice what you preach.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/22/2008 12:03:14 AM
|
|
|
fallenstar
Posts: 127
Joined: 11/29/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Any person, Christian or otherwise.
But why should a person not of your faith follow your religon's rules? Some religons say Abortion is not a sin. If I said you had to follow the Five Pillars of Islam, that would not be fair. If I said you had to perform a ritual at the beach ever year to honor Neptune, would you do it?
This messge is'nt just to you, but to all the people who just say "I don't believe in abortion because God says it's wrong." If that's the only reason why you think abortion is wrong, don't expect people to listen to you. We are'nt the only religon out there, and if we want others to listen to our oppinions, we need to show them some respect.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/22/2008 12:45:07 AM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: fallenstar
If abortion is murder, and it is against the ten commandments to not murder, then Christian women and men should not be allowed to serve in the military and fight in a war,
If killing in war is always murder God's people by His command did so....
quote:
all Christians should be vegetarian,
Jesus didn't serve salad only when He fed the thousands...
quote:
and no Christian should support the death penalty.
Someone being justly put to death isn't murder... If so, Moses murdered thousands who didn't choose God...
quote:
Don't even tell me "I don't believe in murder" if you can kill a grown adult. Even if they "deserve it", you can't if you truly practice what you preach.
Crimes that deserved the death according to the Bible...
According to Numb 35:31 there are criminals which "deserves to die". In the Bible the following crimes deserved the death penalty:
1. Murder (Gen 9:6, Ex 21:12, Numb 35:16-21).
2. Abuse of father or mother (Ex 21:15).
3. Speaking a curse over parents (Ex 21:17).
4. Blasphemy against God (Lev 24:14-16,23).
5. Breaking the Sabbath (Ex 31:14, Numb 15:32-36).
6. Practicing magic (Ex 22:18).
7. Fortune telling and practicing sorcery (Lev 20:27).
8. Religious people who mislead others to fall away (Deut 13:1-5, 18:20).
9. Adultery and fornication (Lev 20:10-12, Deut 22:22).
10. If a woman has intercourse before marriage (Deut 22:20-21).
11. If two people have intercourse when one of them is engaged. (Deut 22:23-24).
12. The daughter of a priest practicing prostitution (Lev 21:9).
13. Rape of someone who is engaged (Deut 22:25).
14. Having intercourse with animals (Ex 22:19).
15. Worshipping idols (Ex 22:20, Lev 20:1-5, Deut 17:2-7).
16. Incest (Lev 20:11-12, 14, 19-21).
17. Homosexuality (Lev 20:13).
18. Kidnapping (Ex 21:16).
19. To bear false testimony at a trial (Deut 19:16, 19).
20. Contempt of court (Deut 17:8-13).
John
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 7/22/2008 12:54:19 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/22/2008 12:52:46 AM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: fallenstar
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Any person, Christian or otherwise.
But why should a person not of your faith follow your religon's rules? Some religons say Abortion is not a sin. If I said you had to follow the Five Pillars of Islam, that would not be fair. If I said you had to perform a ritual at the beach ever year to honor Neptune, would you do it?
This messge is'nt just to you, but to all the people who just say "I don't believe in abortion because God says it's wrong." If that's the only reason why you think abortion is wrong, don't expect people to listen to you. We are'nt the only religon out there, and if we want others to listen to our oppinions, we need to show them some respect.
If God saying its wrong isn't enough no amount of respect with make any real difference... The truth can be presented in a respectful manner and that is all that is required. I for one will not shade the truth to appease those of other religions in hopes that something less than the truth will sway them to it…
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/22/2008 10:38:23 AM
|
|
|
stampinlady
Posts: 1731
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
Status: offline
|
quote:
The first thing about repentance is to understand full well what one has done, owning up to it, praying to God for forgiven, seeking the forgiveness of those I have offended and humbly accepting whatever comes in the way of punishment...
Where did anyone say there's nothing to pay for? We(believers) loose out on many blessings from God because of our disobedience and that can be punsihement in and of itself. Again, where in God's word does He say a believer who has been forgiven after asking for having an abortion will receive punshishment from God? Lost blessings, yes, but punsihment?
_____________________________
Deb
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/22/2008 11:15:55 AM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
Where did anyone say there's nothing to pay for? We(believers) loose out on many blessings from God because of our disobedience and that can be punsihement in and of itself. Again, where in God's word does He say a believer who has been forgiven after asking for having an abortion will receive punshishment from God? Lost blessings, yes, but punsihment?
The punishment I am referring too is that of the civil athourty... I know you are trying your hardest to avoid that concept but I will not allow you to change what I am saying..
People murder outside the womb, repent and serve time and even are put to death... And given that the civil govenrment is God's ordained minister of His wrath for those who do evil that would be God exacting punishment in the end...
Btw... As stated God punished David regardless of his repenting... So it does and can happen on many levels... Does everybody receive some form of punishment, no, but it does happen and that is clearly in God's word...
Maybe if you dealt what I post in the clear context it is posted we could at least deal with it.. I don't care to change your mind, but your desire to ignore the temporal side of things tells me that you are avoiding the issue in large part...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/22/2008 1:39:57 PM
|
|
|
wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
It's a belief that no debate can shake... It's not I but what is in me that holds me upright... My worth is liken to a vapor and apart from the grace of God I not worthy to invoke His name...
To me you are worth far more.
quote:
That's how far beyond help I am in your way of thinking...
Until I say such a thing, or even something from which you can logically deduce such a thing, please refrain from assuming it is my belief.
quote:
I am sorry you got the impression I slacked off on my belief, I thought I was rather clear...
You gave no such impression. You simply stopped using the word "know". You can have unwavering belief. But until you are willing to grant people of all faiths the kind of credibility that would come with real "knowledge" of their God, you simply can't use KNOW. If Muslims correctly knew that Allah was God then there would be no logical reason to stop them from acting with absolute confidence on the word of the Hadith and Koran.
We, as just plain forward thinking 21st century American humans, simply CANNOT tolerate use of words like KNOWLEDGE regarding our beliefs about the afterlife. If we do, then we are getting what's coming to us when other "less modern" people do the same thing and happen to find their religious texts direct them to kill us.
quote:
I was merely honoring your words...
Again, the requirement to stop taking you seriously only arises when you insist that you possess actual real knowledge of God and what will happen when I die. When discussing the afterlife and God, to remain on good and justifiable ground in any mode of discourse, you can "believe" anything you want, pray for anything you want, hope for anything you want and have faith in anything you want, but you cannot know. It's not merely a technicality. It's a vital distinction.
What ten Christians choose to sit in a corner and say to one another is up to them. But when you engage people who are not necessarily of your same views, you don't get to assert your views as unquestionable to ALL. I wouldn't do it to you and I expect you to not do it to me.
I expect you to shun me exactly the same way the minute I start spouting off about knowing you will one day meet your maker Zeus, or even if I merely assert that my naturalistic views are "unquestionable". We simply cannot take such people seriously or we condone their logical fallacy and go down a very dangerous road.
quote:
Though to be honest I really don't see how much more conversation between us can be edifying.
Then we are different. I would talk to you forever. Only one of us can be correct. If it is you, then I want to learn that truth.
quote:
In truth you believe I am intellectually depraved and I believe....
Again, please refrain from putting such words in my mouth. If you feel intellectually depraved that is a you problem, not a me problem.
quote:
Well I'll just hold my tongue and let your own words stand.
You think I'll go to hell. It's not like you needed to let loose your tongue for that one.
quote:
I may respond to something you post, but I am not sure there would be much point in do so...
Funny, it's usually the secularist who washes his hands of the saved and declares them to be "beyond hope". I would have expected you to extend the olive branch and hope to befriend me. Does your faith not lend itself to such grace? If it doesn't, it should.
quote:
Btw... There is a time for everything even cutting people off... And that goes for those who believe and don't believe with the hope they repent and come back...
John
Yes there is, and I've explained when. Merely disagreeing is the furthest possible thing from "grounds for cutting people off". It's telling, but it's not grounds for quitting.
< Message edited by wayward1 -- 7/22/2008 2:40:28 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/22/2008 2:08:05 PM
|
|
|
stampinlady
Posts: 1731
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
Status: offline
|
John, I find it interesting that you continue to post OT scripture, which tells me where your line of thinking comes from. I'm done here.
_____________________________
Deb
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/22/2008 3:10:51 PM
|
|
|
deborlie
Posts: 63
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
|
Stampinlady is right, John.
God went to the Cross for all of our sins.
The cross wipe away our debt. ALL OF IT!
We are forgiven.
We still sin, and live to regret it.....but even the sin of murder, God's work on the Cross took care of that for the believer.
Your thoughts seem to be based on legalism, and that someone has to pay. Someone did. Christ paid that price!
What it seems your insisting on is being under man's legal authority. Jesus says we have to pay to Ceaser whatever is his, but on the otherhand, .........
Legalism has no place in the Christian lifestyle.
We have been freed from that. Paul says we can't have it both ways.
We are either believers or still under the 10 commandments ( even under the other 613 man made laws) which never saved anyone, nor could they.
I think you know all of this.........
God knows the heart..............and is the Ultimate Judge, even in this. Just punishment will be handed out in HIS own good time.
Temper the anger you have, and put that energy to better use.
Perhaps you are being called to somehow help put and end to this atrosity.
Pray, ......or maybe change the way you have prayed, to seek God's direction.
It wouldn't hurt the rest of us to join him in this prayer.
Good Luck, John, and I really mean that.
BJ
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/22/2008 6:33:18 PM
|
|
|
wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
|
Deborlie and Stampinlady,
I think you are on an interesting tangent but I hesitate to inquire about it here in this thread. Do you think it would be worth starting a topic to explore the usefulness of OT scripture. I have always wondered why most Christians found it to be so utterly nullified. Most Christians I know have hardly even picked up an Old Testament but I don't understand why not. I understand that Jesus fulfilled the old law and that the OT "rules" are basically done away with, but I don't understand why it's not still considered to be a very valuable glimpse at God, not to mention the fact that the NT is littered with places that order us to keep the old law. I mean, either He did all those things or He didn't, so if we want to know about the God of Abraham, what better source could there be?. The fulfillment of the OT law doesn't negate the entire OT does it?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/22/2008 6:47:47 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
