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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 9:22:16 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 9026
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
If someone heard that a big fellowship meal was being held at a church, would it make sense that they automatically would assume that morbid obesity or bulimia or anorexia is okay?
You forget that the alcoholic has a truly warped sense of reasoning. (let me qualify that: Active alcoholic)
Everyone without the Holy Spirit has a truly warped sense of reasoning.
_____________________________
It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown!
9.7.08
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 9:25:13 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1898
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quote:
While that is true, an addict of any sort rationalizes to continue the behavior.
Very true!!!!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 9:29:27 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 9026
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
But didn't He do that Himself? For the very purpose of saving that which was lost?
You lost me there. Would you clarify, please?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something. Didn't God, Almighty, High King and Holy, become human, bring Himself down to our humanity, in order to save us?
Look, from what I can see, the situation in the OP isn't talking about helping alcoholics get hammered. It's about bringing people together who might not otherwise enter a church and enjoying fellowship with them?
Around CW we're told that Christians can't go to bars and we can't bring the bar to the church building. I think that effectively ties our hands regarding reaching some of the people who need what we have been so graciously given the most.
_____________________________
It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown!
9.7.08
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 9:30:52 AM
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KatMack
Posts: 980
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Along the Canopy Roads
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quote:
They aren't really that different, the NT expands on the temple definition by the "assembling", the sacredness did not change. The money changers ex supports that.
The money changers were IN THE TEMPLE prior to Pentecost! Once the Holy Spirit descended on believers at Pentecost, there was no longer a need for a building dedicated to God's presence, because His presence was now with us.
Now, I agree that alcohol in the church is a bad idea, but I don't think the idea of a "Jam Session" there is at all. My church just did a dessert theatre last Friday night. The play was Christian, but not beat ya over the head. It showed God's grace and what our purpose as a church should be, but it did it with a LOT of laughs (including my eldest son's stage debut running across the stage duct-taped to a chair  ). The main purpose of the play was to get people that are lost in the door. We sold tables and served dessert and our congregation really stepped up to the plate. I didn't know more than 1 in 5 of the people there. Most of them were neighbors and co-workers of church members that don't know the Lord. The best part of the whole night? Four of those people came to church Sunday morning and heard the gospel proclaimed from the pulpit. Would they have come otherwise? Were we in sin by holding a night of "entertainment?"
My question are what are the motives of the man leading this night? In the OP you only expressed indignation at what he's doing, but didn't offer any insight into what his purpose is. It seems to me that you are choosing to assume the worst. That he's merely doing this for his own glory. Maybe his sincere desire is to reach out to his musician friends in a way that they can understand.
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
If someone heard that a big fellowship meal was being held at a church, would it make sense that they automatically would assume that morbid obesity or bulimia or anorexia is okay?
You forget that the alcoholic has a truly warped sense of reasoning. (let me qualify that: Active alcoholic)
Let me tell you, as someone struggling with an eating disorder, that many of us have truly warped sense of reasoning too...
_____________________________
<-- My sweet blessings.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 9:31:53 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 9026
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
Everyone without the Holy Spirit has a truly warped sense of reasoning.
While that is true, an addict of any sort rationalizes to continue the behavior.
Which they will do regardless of what we do. That's faulty reasoning.
_____________________________
It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown!
9.7.08
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 9:34:22 AM
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zoebob
Posts: 8869
Joined: 4/13/2005
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We have had coffee shop nights at our church on occasion. They did 2 of them as a fund raiser for our missions trip. They had some CHristian rock bands (local groups and some members part of our church) play, admissin was about $5 then they sold baked goods, drinks, etc. My kids went as helpers and enjoyed themselves.
I don't see a problem with this unless the music being played is blatently anti-Christian or glorifies sinful behavior
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 9:34:54 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1898
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quote:
Didn't God, Almighty, High King and Holy, become human, bring Himself down to our humanity, in order to save us?
Yes He did but without one sinful thing. That is the difference. We can't accomplish that here on earth. Nor can we bring Him to a sinful level and expect Him to bless it or tolerate it.
quote:
I think that effectively ties our hands regarding reaching some of the people who need what we have been so graciously given the most.
This doesn't mean we resort to their level. We don't have to compromise our positions for the lost. We are not responsible for their salvation. That's the HS job. If we as Christians act like the world, we deny the saving power of God. We deny His power to change live, hearts and minds. Us looking and acting like the world does not separate us or even remotely set us apart. We blend in, thus denying God by our actions.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 9:38:28 AM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
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I have a problem with things taking place at church that a portion of members would be excluded from. In this case, those under 21.
Also, even if it is BYOB, there may be legal liability on the church.
Is a fee being charged for entrance? What type of music is being played?
Does this particular church take a stand against alcohol consumption?
Is this going to raise a bigger stink than it is worth?
I have no problem with moderate alcohol consumption, but if a church or any organization decided it will be on their property, they better make sure it is not available for underage people, and that their insurance will cover any situations that may arise. People will sue at the drop of a hat.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 9:39:01 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 9026
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Didn't God, Almighty, High King and Holy, become human, bring Himself down to our humanity, in order to save us?
Yes He did but without one sinful thing. That is the difference. We can't accomplish that here on earth. Nor can we bring Him to a sinful level and expect Him to bless it or tolerate it.
Okay, sorry. What, exactly, is sinful in what your OP is about? Specific sin please and chapter and verse if you don't mind.
quote:
quote:
I think that effectively ties our hands regarding reaching some of the people who need what we have been so graciously given the most.
This doesn't mean we resort to their level. We don't have to compromise our positions for the lost. We are not responsible for their salvation. That's the HS job. If we as Christians act like the world, we deny the saving power of God. We deny His power to change live, hearts and minds. Us looking and acting like the world does not separate us or even remotely set us apart. We blend in, thus denying God by our actions.
I must be an idiot. Choosing to spend an evening in church and bringing people with me doesn't seem like blending in to the world. I agree that salvation is the Holy Spirit's job but faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The Word of God sometimes happens IN a church building. 
_____________________________
It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown!
9.7.08
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 9:42:26 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 9026
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
If we as Christians act like the world, we deny the saving power of God. We deny His power to change live, hearts and minds. Us looking and acting like the world does not separate us or even remotely set us apart. We blend in, thus denying God by our actions.
Exactly! We go out to evangelize. We come to church to worship. Different places for different purposes.
Does that mean that the ONLY time the church should be opened is to worship?
No car washes in the lot, no festivals, no fundraisers. Worship and only worship in the church!
_____________________________
It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown!
9.7.08
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 9:45:38 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 9026
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
If we as Christians act like the world, we deny the saving power of God. We deny His power to change live, hearts and minds. Us looking and acting like the world does not separate us or even remotely set us apart. We blend in, thus denying God by our actions.
Exactly! We go out to evangelize. We come to church to worship. Different places for different purposes.
Another thought. So, we go out to evangelize. That doesn't include inviting people to our church for functions? Basically, people need to be fixed up a bit before they can come to church?
_____________________________
It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown!
9.7.08
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 9:47:04 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 9026
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
I have a problem with things taking place at church that a portion of members would be excluded from. In this case, those under 21.
Also, even if it is BYOB, there may be legal liability on the church.
Is a fee being charged for entrance? What type of music is being played?
Does this particular church take a stand against alcohol consumption?
Is this going to raise a bigger stink than it is worth?
I have no problem with moderate alcohol consumption, but if a church or any organization decided it will be on their property, they better make sure it is not available for underage people, and that their insurance will cover any situations that may arise. People will sue at the drop of a hat.
This is all logic I can agree with.
It might not be a good idea but not because a building is THE TEMPLE or because alcoholics might rationalize something that they're rationalizing anyway or because it 'looks like the world'.
_____________________________
It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown!
9.7.08
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 9:50:50 AM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
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I am rather paranoid when it comes to churches and lawsuits. I have seen some doozies, and watched my former denomination shell out big bucks for situations that really did not amount to a hill of beans. Legal liability is always a concern.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 9:51:46 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 9026
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
I am rather paranoid when it comes to churches and lawsuits. I have seen some doozies, and watched my former denomination shell out big bucks for situations that really did not amount to a hill of beans. Legal liability is always a concern.
I agree. It's crazy but it's true.
_____________________________
It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown!
9.7.08
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 9:52:35 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1898
Status: offline
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quote:
Okay, sorry. What, exactly, is sinful in what your OP is about? Specific sin please and chapter and verse if you don't mind.
Are you responding to the original op or the updated information I posted. That would make all the difference in the world to our discussion should we be responding to two different pieces of information.
For my responses: bringing a bar atmosphere into the House of God.
Jud 1:1 Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:
Jud 1:2 May mercy and peace and love be multiplied to you.
Jud 1:3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
Jud 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
Jud 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jud 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
Jud 1:8 Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
Jud 1:9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
Jud 1:10 But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
Jud 1:11 Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
Jud 1:12 These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;
Jud 1:13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
Jud 1:14 {It was} also about these men {that} Enoch, {in} the seventh {generation} from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
Jud 1:15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
Jud 1:16 These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their {own} lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of {gaining an} advantage.
Jud 1:17 But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Jud 1:18 that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts."
Jud 1:19 These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.
Jud 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
Jud 1:21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
Jud 1:22 And have mercy on some, who are doubting;
Jud 1:23 save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.
Jud 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
Jud 1:25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, {be} glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
quote:
I must be an idiot. Choosing to spend an evening in church and bringing people with me doesn't seem like blending in to the world. I agree that salvation is the Holy Spirit's job but faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The Word of God sometimes happens IN a church building.
Totally depends on their definition of hearing the Word of God. Preaching won't be occurring in this scenario. Jamming will be, secular music too. In the original op, alcohol was apart of it. That is the argument.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 9:55:18 AM
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WesP
Posts: 2463
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
If we as Christians act like the world, we deny the saving power of God. We deny His power to change live, hearts and minds. Us looking and acting like the world does not separate us or even remotely set us apart. We blend in, thus denying God by our actions.
Exactly! We go out to evangelize. We come to church to worship. Different places for different purposes.
Another thought. So, we go out to evangelize. That doesn't include inviting people to our church for functions? Basically, people need to be fixed up a bit before they can come to church?
You are taking it to an extreme. Church is for the saved, but that does not exclude others. It means that if someone continues to attend, they need to be living a righteous life. Remember, when a member is backsliding, we are to go to him for correction. If he refuses to do so, he is left to the world until he repents.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
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<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
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