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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/30/2008 3:14:33 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
That is not what I said. I plainly said I would NOT be blocking God. It is not in my power to do so. But human nature being what it is I certainly can stand in another human's way. I CAN"T prevent God from granting salvation. I CAN influence another human as to his/her acceptance of that salvation.
I edited my previous post to add scripture.
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"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/30/2008 3:26:59 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 9446
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From: Crimson Tide Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
That is not what I said. I plainly said I would NOT be blocking God. It is not in my power to do so. But human nature being what it is I certainly can stand in another human's way. I CAN"T prevent God from granting salvation. I CAN influence another human as to his/her acceptance of that salvation.
I edited my previous post to add scripture.
Yes maam. And your scripture quotes are addressing someone that is already saved. I agree 100% with the scripture you quoted. Nothing can separate me from the love of God. However the unsaved do not have that assurance.
Salvation is a gift. You agree with that right?
A gift can be accepted or refused. Do you agree with that?
I still maintain I cannot prevent the giver(God) from giving anyone salvation. And for the record why would I ever want to? But I (through my actions or failure to act) can have some influence of someone that is not saved and their decision as to whether to accep this gift or not. If I could not there would be no need for the mention of stumbling blocks in the Bile.
_____________________________
STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/30/2008 3:37:59 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2191
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We agree to the point of being a stumbling block in salvation. Stumbling block refers to sin, helping or encouraging another to sin.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/30/2008 3:42:21 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2191
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
But I (through my actions or failure to act) can have some influence of someone that is not saved and their decision as to whether to accep this gift or not. If I could not there would be no need for the mention of stumbling blocks in the Bile.
I just reread this. This statement agrees with my mindset regarding the things that go on in a church, like a secular jam session. I don't see it as a means of preventing salvation, however I see it as a way to deny the true gospel to non-believers. IOW, leading them to a false belief system. A watered down, anything goes type of religion. We both know that is not what God wants from us or expects of His children.
ETA: I'm not saying that a jam session is sinful or misleading in and of itself. In regards to a church and its presence there, the image of Christianity can be tainted, by leading nonbelievers to think this is what Christ is all about.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/30/2008 3:46:06 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 9446
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From: Crimson Tide Country
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Call it anything you like. But do you think I can let myself be used by God to spread the Gospel to the lost and try to persuade them to accept His gift?
If not o.k.
If you do, how can you not believe I can let myself be used by the devil or other sources (even just me) to try to persuade them not to accept?
People underestimate the power of satan. Without holding on tight to the hand of God satan can weld tremendous power over human beings. Satan has of course no power over God. Nothing has that kind of power. But God does not make us accept his gift we must do that of our own free will. We can also reject that gift. If I can reject it then you can have some influence on me. That influence can be directed toward accepting salvation or rejecting it. That is all I am trying to say. I think it is the same thing Dude was trying to say.
_____________________________
STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/30/2008 3:50:25 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 9446
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
But I (through my actions or failure to act) can have some influence of someone that is not saved and their decision as to whether to accep this gift or not. If I could not there would be no need for the mention of stumbling blocks in the Bile.
I just reread this. This statement agrees with my mindset regarding the things that go on in a church, like a secular jam session. I don't see it as a means of preventing salvation, however I see it as a way to deny the true gospel to non-believers. IOW, leading them to a false belief system. A watered down, anything goes type of religion. We both know that is not what God wants from us or expects of His children.
ETA: I'm not saying that a jam session is sinful or misleading in and of itself. In regards to a church and its presence there, the image of Christianity can be tainted, by leading nonbelievers to think this is what Christ is all about.
I have said before that is your beliefs and opinion and you are entitled to both. I have also made it plain we do not agree on this particular subject. I am not interested in getting back into that debate. I was only trying to explain the misunderstanding over Dude's post.
_____________________________
STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/30/2008 3:51:54 PM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
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When is this event going to take place?
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/30/2008 3:55:50 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2191
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quote:
Call it anything you like. But do you think I can let myself be used by God to spread the Gospel to the lost and try to persuade them to accept His gift?
Of course.
quote:
If you do, how can you not believe I can let myself be used by the devil or other sources (even just me) to try to persuade them not to accept?
Because God is God, He already knows who will accept and who won't. It's not dependent upon us. We do have to be examples of the life changing power He has.
quote:
That influence can be directed toward accepting salvation or rejecting it. That is all I am trying to say. I think it is the same thing Dude was trying to say.
That kinda sounds like we then have the power to change destinies. I don't think we do. I do believe that we can encourage, influence things for a season, but when it comes time, God demands a choice to be made. If people play with it too long, He hardens their hearts. That's why I think we as Christians have to be careful of the lifestyles we choose to portray both inside of the church and outside.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/30/2008 3:59:26 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2191
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
I have said before that is your beliefs and opinion and you are entitled to both. I have also made it plain we do not agree on this particular subject. I am not interested in getting back into that debate. I was only trying to explain the misunderstanding over Dude's post.
Sorry, I must have been typing when you posted this. I wasn't trying to engage again. Just trying to be clear in my post where I thought it could be misconstrued.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/30/2008 4:01:06 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2191
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
When is this event going to take place?
Aug. 22
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/30/2008 4:10:54 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 9446
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Call it anything you like. But do you think I can let myself be used by God to spread the Gospel to the lost and try to persuade them to accept His gift?
Of course.
quote:
If you do, how can you not believe I can let myself be used by the devil or other sources (even just me) to try to persuade them not to accept?
Because God is God, He already knows who will accept and who won't. It's not dependent upon us. We do have to be examples of the life changing power He has.
quote:
That influence can be directed toward accepting salvation or rejecting it. That is all I am trying to say. I think it is the same thing Dude was trying to say.
That kinda sounds like we then have the power to change destinies. I don't think we do. I do believe that we can encourage, influence things for a season, but when it comes time, God demands a choice to be made. If people play with it too long, He hardens their hearts. That's why I think we as Christians have to be careful of the lifestyles we choose to portray both inside of the church and outside.
FWIW I think we are using different words to say substantially the same thing.
_____________________________
STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/30/2008 4:18:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
John I don't think you understand what dude is saying yet.
I understand what he posted... As I stated I don't buy into the view that salvation hangs in the balance due to man's action and inaction... And I am coming to the understanding that my posting of my view of this is the reason for the "confusion." That fact that I rebutting what he is posting says I understand what he is posting... How can I not agree with his view that man can keep other man from salvation by their actions if I don't understand in the first place?
quote:
Let's try a hypothetical scerario. Keep in mind all of this is fiction and not saying anything personal.
First lets assume you are lost.
Lets assume God has decided to give you one more chance to be saved. And it is at a function at a church that all church members don't agree with. I am one of the one's that does not agree.
I let "me" whether through pride or other reasons get i the way of this function and prevent it from taking place. You suddenly die without having been saved because you missed your last chance at this function. While only God can grant you Salvation I stood in your way. I did not block God I blocked you. So I am going to be held accountable for that action. I think that is what dude is saying.
Here is what he said....
How can the pride of a church member affect the eternal salvation of anyone? When the church member says, "I don't approve of this because I don't see the outreach in it." If there's a chance that someone can be reached, I say give it a chance. Or we could let pride get in the way and keep it from happening. There's no guarantee that they'll get another chance.
While I am not an English Major I can read and comprehend and the above states that the pride of another person could keep another person from being saved. I believe that view to be in error since that takes salvation out of the hand of God and places it into man's...
Again, it's one thing to hold the view the Christians should reach out and in not doing so they don't obey God, but it's another to say that if they don't souls will be lost... God's hands are never tied...
John
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/30/2008 4:24:32 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
That is not what I said. I plainly said I would NOT be blocking God. It is not in my power to do so. But human nature being what it is I certainly can stand in another human's way. I CAN"T prevent God from granting salvation. I CAN influence another human as to his/her acceptance of that salvation.
I edited my previous post to add scripture.
Yes maam. And your scripture quotes are addressing someone that is already saved. I agree 100% with the scripture you quoted. Nothing can separate me from the love of God. However the unsaved do not have that assurance.
Salvation is a gift. You agree with that right?
A gift can be accepted or refused. Do you agree with that?
I still maintain I cannot prevent the giver(God) from giving anyone salvation. And for the record why would I ever want to? But I (through my actions or failure to act) can have some influence of someone that is not saved and their decision as to whether to accep this gift or not. If I could not there would be no need for the mention of stumbling blocks in the Bile.
That's of course if one believes that God only offers salvation and doesn't work it through and of course that is were some of us part ways... I don't believe it's simply an offer left on the table since man apart from the Spirit cannot understand things of the Spirit so an offer from God would amount to nothing to those who cannot understand.
John
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/30/2008 4:35:05 PM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 954
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: online
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He's essentially getting into the differences between those that believe in election vs free will.
John is reformed (believes in election)....
There are many debates over whether we are able to "choose" our salvation...
See the Calvinism vs Arminian threads....
_____________________________
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/30/2008 5:16:41 PM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 954
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: online
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quote:
So reformed means one believes in election?
Generally yes, but there are varying degrees of understanding... (and I would say that I am reformed too)
Don't feel bad - I study and many times have more questions than answers...
I just know that God is God and I'm not.
_____________________________
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/31/2008 2:26:40 PM
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edgibson
Posts: 127
Joined: 10/3/2005
From: Then: upper NY, Now: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Would you have a problem with someone playing secular music as part of a wedding, or the reception, held at the church?
No. That scenario is not intended to be an outreach. It is a celebration and I think that criteria if different.
If outreach is intended then higher standards then the world need to apply.
As someone else has already stated, that's one of the reasons the world sees us as hypocrites.
We don't always practice what we preach.
According to you the jam session was not an outreach ministry either. I think you just answered your on question and solved your own problem.
I did, too. It was mine!
But the instrumentalist played some Bach, that's secular. So I guess that cancels out the Gospel presentation.
_____________________________
Where are we going?
And why are we in this handbasket?
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/31/2008 3:22:47 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 918
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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Bach is secular? Are we talking about the same Bach who was a devout Lutheran and annotated his music with Bible verses? The same Bach who tried to describe the glory of creation through his music?
"However without sharing Bach's faith he/she is unable to enter fully into the spiritual experience that Bach's work represents." -- BBC radio
We must be thinking about two different people. I'm thinking of Johann Sebastian Bach.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 8/1/2008 11:18:12 AM
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DougHorton
Posts: 918
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: edgibson
We are talking of the same composer.
Does the fact that he was a christian automaticly make his music christian?
No. But being a Christian who wrote "christian" music for church worship does make his music "christian". Although I have never seen a piece of music baptized and turned into a Christian, he did write his music to glorify god in corporate church worship.
quote:
Soooooo,
Then would a christian, playing an instrumental piece, with other christians and/or non-christians, not be playing christian music?
What is the minimum christian-to-non-christian ratio that would allow for the music to be christian?
Please show all work 
I couldn't care less what is "christian" or "non-christian" music. As I said, I have never seen a piece of music baptized. What is important is whether it is appropriate for glorifying God in corporate worship.
The issue in question is whether a sanctuary, dedicated for corporate worship, should be made to resemble a bar for the entertainment of a few musicians.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 8/1/2008 12:01:14 PM
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edgibson
Posts: 127
Joined: 10/3/2005
From: Then: upper NY, Now: NC
Status: offline
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So does non-worship music make a place resemble a bar?
_____________________________
Where are we going?
And why are we in this handbasket?
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 8/1/2008 12:04:53 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 918
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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Read the OP.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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