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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 10:07:54 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1733
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quote:
What about churches who use wine for communion?
That's like the polar opposite of what people use alcohol for. In this scenario, there's no communion taking place. It's a party atmosphere we are discussing. Big difference.
Car washes and fund raisers aren't unholy. They produce funding for ministry opportunities. Again , it's the disregard for the holiness of God's House that's being discussed.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 10:13:47 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 8192
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
I'm going to extremes, Wes? What about churches who use wine for communion? That's alcohol and it's being used for not only fellowship but a sacrament. Something that's HOLY. Within the church building.
Look, I can see that you have a legitimate problem with the situation in the OP but you're using blanket statement arguments that don't hold up.
First of all, allow me to apologize. That was a bad choice of words. I am not arguing against Communion wine. We do not pour glasses of wine to do Communion. Although we do not have the same perceptions, it is not something that should be divisive. I have much respect for you and what you share here.
No need for apology at all. I always appreciate your posts and have the utmost respect for you. Like I said, you have a legitimate issue. But there's a real need for all of us to have solid arguments as I'm sure you've seen in many areas of CW. 
_____________________________
Some days it's just not worth
chewing through the restraints.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 10:20:08 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5848
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
If someone heard that a big fellowship meal was being held at a church, would it make sense that they automatically would assume that morbid obesity or bulimia or anorexia is okay?
You forget that the alcoholic has a truly warped sense of reasoning. (let me qualify that: Active alcoholic)
The very same is true about people with eating disorders.
BTW, didn't you say it's not your problem if what you do tempts another? Either you are or you aren't your brother's keeper. You can't have it both ways depending on whether something personally tempts you.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 10:29:53 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 949
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
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quote:
Clothing and what car you drive isn't an issue as promoting bars in churches.
You didn't say "promoting bars in churches." You said that alcoholics could be led astray by alcohol being present in church (which it seems, now, that this event wasn't going to have alcohol anyway, so I still wonder about the term "bar" being used...).
I contend that if someone who struggles with lust, or with self-esteem issues, walks into church and sees someone scantily clad, they will get the impression that it's OK to commit sins involving the way they dress, or look at the way other people dress.
Similarly, if someone with an attitude similar to that of the rich young ruler from the gospel accounts enters into a church parking lot filled with BMWs and other pricey cars, they will conclude that materialism is acceptable for the Christian.
That's the impression I got from your line of reasoning, anyhow.
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 10:37:07 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 8192
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Okay, sorry. What, exactly, is sinful in what your OP is about? Specific sin please and chapter and verse if you don't mind.
Are you responding to the original op or the updated information I posted. That would make all the difference in the world to our discussion should we be responding to two different pieces of information.
quote:
I must be an idiot. Choosing to spend an evening in church and bringing people with me doesn't seem like blending in to the world. I agree that salvation is the Holy Spirit's job but faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The Word of God sometimes happens IN a church building.
Totally depends on their definition of hearing the Word of God. Preaching won't be occurring in this scenario. Jamming will be, secular music too. In the original op, alcohol was apart of it. That is the argument.
Well, let's define what you consider the problem to be. Is it the alcohol? Is it the music? If it's just the alcohol, is the event okay with the updated coffee-only scenario? What if it's not held in the sanctuary but in the fellowship hall? Okay or not okay? What parts are acceptable to you and which parts aren't?
I'll have to come back to the rest of your post cause I ran out of time. 
_____________________________
Some days it's just not worth
chewing through the restraints.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 10:38:10 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1733
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quote:
BTW, didn't you say it's not your problem if what you do tempts another? Either you are or you aren't your brother's keeper. You can't have it both ways depending on whether something personally tempts you.
Why yes Jimbo, I did. But let's put it in the context that I said it. If someone has a bulimia or anorexia problem, then it's their responsibility to not go to places that tempt them to sin. If I should be hosting one of these events, and invite a person with these issues, and don't know they have these issue, how is it that I am responsible for contributing to their sinning?
If you choose to quote me, please do so in it's entirety, not bits and pieces to attempt to disqualify 
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 10:39:52 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1182
Joined: 7/31/2007
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Hmm. There are denominations that specifically forbid the consumption of alcohol anywhere on the premises. I doubt this is one of them. ;)
I've never really thought events in a church are that big of a deal, but then again I went to church in a grade school gym for years. Kind of desensitizes you to "what happens in here the other 6 days of the week?" While churches really shouldn't be aiding and abetting blatantly sinful practices (drunkenness, the lewd variety of secular songs, etc), it wouldn't bother me too much if someone decided to hold a secular concert in our church. My first thought would be more "Cool, we need to put up some GOSPEL POSTERS! And TRACTS! Yeah! Get the Gideons to put a "free Bibles" table in the back! Maybe some announcements for activities that look fun where we can work in witnessing!"
What a witnessing opportunity...
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 10:40:47 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1733
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quote:
You said that alcoholics could be led astray by alcohol being present in church (which it seems, now, that this event wasn't going to have alcohol anyway, so I still wonder about the term "bar" being used...).
This is how tho original idea was presented to me, as I stated in the OP.
quote:
contend that if someone who struggles with lust, or with self-esteem issues, walks into church and sees someone scantily clad, they will get the impression that it's OK to commit sins involving the way they dress, or look at the way other people dress.
Similarly, if someone with an attitude similar to that of the rich young ruler from the gospel accounts enters into a church parking lot filled with BMWs and other pricey cars, they will conclude that materialism is acceptable for the Christian.
That's the impression I got from your line of reasoning, anyhow.
Who are you responding to?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 10:50:59 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5848
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
BTW, didn't you say it's not your problem if what you do tempts another? Either you are or you aren't your brother's keeper. You can't have it both ways depending on whether something personally tempts you.
Why yes Jimbo, I did. But let's put it in the context that I said it. If someone has a bulimia or anorexia problem, then it's their responsibility to not go to places that tempt them to sin. If I should be hosting one of these events, and invite a person with these issues, and don't know they have these issue, how is it that I am responsible for contributing to their sinning?
If you choose to quote me, please do so in it's entirety, not bits and pieces to attempt to disqualify
I don't see a bit of difference in what you said with it's disclaimers and what I understand you to say. You put the responsibility on the weaker person to know in advance that they will encounter temptation that you present them. IOW, you are free to go & do whatever suits you without thought for others - unless it tempts you. I have unsaved neighbors with the same sort of attitude...
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 10:59:50 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1733
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quote:
.IF the get together were to still happens sans alcohol, would you still be against it?
Come again, please.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 11:05:04 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1733
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quote:
IOW, you are free to go & do whatever suits you without thought for others - unless it tempts you. I have unsaved neighbors with the same sort of attitude...
Do you not see how absolutely ridiculous your reasoning is? Should be watching every step we make because we might unknowingly cause another to sin, ? Our time would be spent on a waiting and watching. We would be ever walking on egg shells. Why is it, do you think, that we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling?
Will you stand before God and answer for your brother's sin? Or will you stand and answer for your own?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 11:15:21 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5848
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
IOW, you are free to go & do whatever suits you without thought for others - unless it tempts you. I have unsaved neighbors with the same sort of attitude...
Do you not see how absolutely ridiculous your reasoning is? Should be watching every step we make because we might unknowingly cause another to sin, ? Our time would be spent on a waiting and watching. We would be ever walking on egg shells. Why is it, do you think, that we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling?
Will you stand before God and answer for your brother's sin? Or will you stand and answer for your own?
I got my ridiculous reasoning from Paul. Spend some time reading his epistles. In them you will learn that your liberty in Christ should be tempered and even, at times, abandoned for the sake of weaker believers - and unbelievers. The "gold standard" of conduct is Jesus, who never caused another to be tempted to sin.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 11:33:13 AM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 342
Joined: 6/12/2008
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This seems to have gotten wildly off track from the OP...from what I can see. It's become a discussion mainly about the dos and don'ts of alcohol.
I have yet to see anyone recognize the desire to bring worldliness into the church...or Church, if you will.
Why is it so hard to understand the concept of holiness? The Church (as in the body of believers) as well as the church (even the very building that has the name of God attached to it) should be separate from the world. We should look, act and sound different than the world. We should even "smell" different...how's that for radical!? We should be a sweet aroma to the Lord.
And believe you me, if we were as pleasing to the Lord as we should be, we would at least be able to attract the world for a second look. Jesus never had to go where the world "hung out"...the world came to Him, because there was "something" about Him that the world wanted to know more about.
I'm glad to see it's only a "coffee" bar, however, there's a much bigger picture that many seem to miss.
Most Christians that I encounter (if not all and including myself) have a desire to have one foot in the world. They will deny that, but will justify their sinful tendancies with phrases like, "If we want to reach the world, we must get down on their level."
I'm sick of the excuses.
Do you or your church, look like Christ, or the world? Do you or your church stand apart and seem different from what the world is used to?
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 12:28:56 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1733
Status: offline
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quote:
This seems to have gotten wildly off track from the OP...from what I can see. It's become a discussion mainly about the dos and don'ts of alcohol.
I have yet to see anyone recognize the desire to bring worldliness into the church...or Church, if you will.
Why is it so hard to understand the concept of holiness? The Church (as in the body of believers) as well as the church (even the very building that has the name of God attached to it) should be separate from the world. We should look, act and sound different than the world. We should even "smell" different...how's that for radical!? We should be a sweet aroma to the Lord.
And believe you me, if we were as pleasing to the Lord as we should be, we would at least be able to attract the world for a second look. Jesus never had to go where the world "hung out"...the world came to Him, because there was "something" about Him that the world wanted to know more about.
I'm glad to see it's only a "coffee" bar, however, there's a much bigger picture that many seem to miss.
Most Christians that I encounter (if not all and including myself) have a desire to have one foot in the world. They will deny that, but will justify their sinful tendancies with phrases like, "If we want to reach the world, we must get down on their level."
I'm sick of the excuses.
Do you or your church, look like Christ, or the world? Do you or your church stand apart and seem different from what the world is used to?
Peter, thank you for this. However did you miss some of my earlier posts expressing this same sentiment?
Please see post #13, 20 for example
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 12:41:35 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 342
Joined: 6/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Peter, thank you for this. However did you miss some of my earlier posts expressing this same sentiment?
Please see post #13, 20 for example
No, I did see (and appreciate) your words before I pitched in my two-cents. I just think it's such an important point and, we as Christians, need to be reminded of it often.
I've found that many people on these boards actually get angry when the subject of holiness is brought into the conversation...at least it "appears" that they are angry. I've seen it written, in reference to the passage that tells us to "be in the world, but not of the world," that that scripture is something Christians drag out when they "just don't like something but cannot back up their opinions biblically."
That is an extremely telling and sad commentary...and one I'm afraid is very, very common among believers, even away from these boards.
Regardless, I'm going to keep ramming my head against that wall...I'll never stop proclaiming two things: 1) Jesus died for the sins of the world and 2) Be holy, as Christ is holy.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 12:56:33 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1182
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
And believe you me, if we were as pleasing to the Lord as we should be, we would at least be able to attract the world for a second look. Jesus never had to go where the world "hung out"...the world came to Him, because there was "something" about Him that the world wanted to know more about.
The thing is, though, that this could be an opportunity for the world to "come to us". Sure, the jam session might be secular, but as long as it isn't sinful, you've still got all these people who may have NEVER come into a church, in your church.
What an opportunity to witness!
Plaster the walls with the gospel message. Send the pastor to introduce himself, welcome them, invite them to services and offer his time if anyone wants to talk. Put up a table of free Bibles and tracts. Put out events fliers for fun stuff where you can further witness to them. Make them feel comfortable with the idea of coming to church.
The church is holy because the church is us. The gradeschool gym I went to church in was holy when we were there because Jesus was with us. My living room is holy when a Bible study meets there. The campground at the lake that we're having church at on Sunday is going to be holy. The stadiums where Billy Graham is speaking are holy. The hillsides where Jesus spoke weren't official churches but they were more holy while He was there than any of our brick walls and pointy steeples are when nobody's in there.
Don't think of it as an opportunity for the world to "rub off" in your sanctuary... think of it as an opportunity for your church to "rub off" on the people who come! You can preach at them like crazy from your walls and your tables and they can't get offended about it!
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 1:11:05 PM
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KatMack
Posts: 973
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Along the Canopy Roads
Status: offline
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quote:
The church is holy because the church is us. The gradeschool gym I went to church in was holy when we were there because Jesus was with us. My living room is holy when a Bible study meets there. The campground at the lake that we're having church at on Sunday is going to be holy. The stadiums where Billy Graham is speaking are holy. The hillsides where Jesus spoke weren't official churches but they were more holy while He was there than any of our brick walls and pointy steeples are when nobody's in there.
Don't think of it as an opportunity for the world to "rub off" in your sanctuary... think of it as an opportunity for your church to "rub off" on the people who come! You can preach at them like crazy from your walls and your tables and they can't get offended about it!
AMEN!
PeterGunn, I agree with you... to a point. I do think that many Christians lose sight of what the purpose of the church is. It IS to edify the body of Christ. I've agreed with you when the topic of church discipline and church membership have come up on these boards. I disagree with you though, in the idea that the physical building that a church resides in is somehow Holy in and of itself. On that point, I'm totally in agreement with what Zhi said and I quoted above.
I agree that membership in a church should be reserved for those that are followers of Christ and that the church's primary goal is not evangelism. That's the job of individual believers. But I also believe that one of the church's purposes is to HELP believers as they reach out to a lost world, and if that includes using the "sanctuary" for a jam session, great!
--Kat
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<-- My sweet blessings.
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