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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 10:02:38 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 9435
Joined: 6/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
Which is why those who MOST need it will never darken it's doorstep. What could be more off-putting to people who need Jesus than a "presentation" of holiness?
I don't believe there was a moment where Jesus was unholy. If the church is about Christ, it should represent Him. Jesus Christ is holy. The church should represent Christ, what better way than to present sanctity?
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ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
If someone heard that a big fellowship meal was being held at a church, would it make sense that they automatically would assume that morbid obesity...
No, because America has already made that choice. 65% of America is already obese, therefore making relevance that people must assume that eating, as far as gluttony, is "OK".
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If so, that sounds like pretty lame logic to me.
Having a bar in a church, a place that is supposed to honor Christ, sounds lame to me. Yet, many people jump on the bandwagon of this illogicalness.
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ORIGINAL: WesP
I have always believed that the church building was a place dedicated to focusing on God.
If this were a game show, you would win some sort of prize.
1 Peter 1:13-16
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
You didn't say "promoting bars in churches." You said that alcoholics could be led astray by alcohol being present in church
I know of many people whom drink. If they were to see a bar in a church, they would assume it's alright for them to do whatever they're doing, especially since the church is now doing it.
That is NOT setting an example for Christ.
Not all people may assume such, but a lot would, that's the typical secular mindset.
_____________________________
Cynicism is an unpleasant way of saying the truth.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 10:04:21 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
I am quite familiar with all of those instances, and see no correlation between them and declaring a certain building, or type of building, sacred.
My apologies. I didn't realize that you were looking for examples of the building. i thought you just wanted me to provide illustrations of specific ideology exampled.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 10:12:54 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1580
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quote:
By believers connecting to one another in love, and reaching out to non-believers in love.
This does not mean we get down on an unbelievers level or that we have to compromise our standards all in the name of love and call it ministry.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 10:17:41 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1580
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quote:
You can't do that if you are a woman!!!
Oooops, but my families eternal life was on the line! Doesn't that count????
Thank you Grape Ape. I appreciate your input and pulling the scripture, I just couldn't find when I needed it.!!!!!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 10:30:32 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1580
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quote:
Nope. We must follow the laws!
You know what that would then make us right?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 11:13:24 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 8056
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Coeurdeleon,
This is in response to your post.
Alcohol in a church, used as a sacrament would not be a sin. What's the difference? How about turning the church into a honky tonk. Holy isn't it? 
Honky tonk? That's extremist talk again. Some musicians getting together to play a bit is hardly turning church into a honky tonk. Or at least I imagine so since I'm not 100% clear on what a honky tonk is exactly.
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I don't get the point you were trying to make about congregations meeting in other places. That's why I asked. 
So what if a church meets in a restaurant that serves alcohol? Would they be partaking, dancing on tables, removing shirts or are the separated, in a quiet place?
My point was, if alcohol is served in the building on Friday nights, is the congregation that meets there a real church or are they setting a bad example, making Christ look bad and encouraging alcoholism? Are their services just as holy as those held in a different kind of building? If so, then what is the difference between that and what is proposed? Is it the building that makes a church?
And again with the extremism "dancing on tables, removing shirts". It really didn't sound to me like the guy in your original post wanted to set out to turn his church into a dive. No one is going to be drinking Sunday morning in his church either so your point is moot.
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Secular jam sessions with alcohol have no place in the house of God. Earlier you asked for scriptures backing up my position. I gave them to you. You didn't respond to them.
I apologize, I haven't had a chance to get back to them.
Just one further thought not directed at deliveredarling. This is my take on it; even IF it was a BYOB thing, how likely is it that anyone would actually show up to a church building hauling their liquor with them? But how powerful is the implied statement that they will be accepted as they are? This man would be debunking two images of the Christian hypocrite, 1) that Christians worship on Sunday and live like the devil the rest of the week and 2) that Christians are self-righteous and look down their holier-than-thou noses at everyone else. And since there apparently isn't going to be alcohol, I really don't see what there is to fuss about.
_____________________________
I want everyone here to know that I agree with the Lioness on every issue. Even when I disagree with her!
The Lioness Rules and Rocks! ~ Bluestone
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 11:19:20 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 8056
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
i was on my way to bed and had one last thought for the night.
Have we truly lost sight of what the church building itself represents?
What about what it means to people? A place to find hope, help, refuge, mercy, understanding and love.
If we compromise our positions and begin saying we will allow the world to come in the meaning is lost. Yes, people can find those things elsewhere.
Finding them, in this day and age is very hard to do.
Just with the title of Christian, it's often hard to distinguish between the beliver and the non-believer. 
According to this thread, it's the building that distinguishes us. The building is "holy" and that must be protected at all costs and against everyone. Especially those who NEED the One we worship in those buildings. Unless they do things the right way (read 'our way'), then they can come in. But for goodness sake, it's God's house, don't spill any red Koolaid on the carpet in the fellowship hall!
_____________________________
I want everyone here to know that I agree with the Lioness on every issue. Even when I disagree with her!
The Lioness Rules and Rocks! ~ Bluestone
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 11:28:42 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 8056
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
This is my take on it; even IF it was a BYOB thing, how likely is it that anyone would actually show up to a church building hauling their liquor with them?
I thought that was the point of this thread. You can come to church and bring a bottle. It doesn't matter because God is forgiving.
I just don't see it that way, Wes. What possible reason could this guy have to go to all the trouble of having this event in his church? So that he can get liquored up and make God look bad? The guy's a masochist if that's his logic. He could just go where he normally goes to have a "jam session". The only reason I can see for him doing it is to bring people to a church building who might never set foot in one between weddings and funerals (if that), to fellowship with them and give them a clearer idea of what Christians really are like. That we aren't either of the types of hypocrites that I mentioned. That God is real to us and that He's not a hateful, vindictive, punishing God who just loves to knock us flat with lightning bolts every chance He gets. Yes, He's holy. That's why we, and they, NEED Jesus. "The world" has a flaky and backward idea of what Christians are. I see what this guy is trying to do as an effort to break through some of the ignorance and find common ground where something better can be built.
Of course, I could be a naive and cock-eyed optimist, too.  
_____________________________
I want everyone here to know that I agree with the Lioness on every issue. Even when I disagree with her!
The Lioness Rules and Rocks! ~ Bluestone
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 11:39:00 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 8056
Joined: 9/4/2005
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Someone else brought up house churches. They are churches, right? Say a congregation meets in my house on Sunday mornings. On Friday I invite my Christian friends and my non-Christian friends to my house to play music, enjoy each other's company and we have a beer that is no different than what this guy proposes to do.
I just see a lot of the arguments bordering on building worship and that bothers me.
_____________________________
I want everyone here to know that I agree with the Lioness on every issue. Even when I disagree with her!
The Lioness Rules and Rocks! ~ Bluestone
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 11:42:19 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 8056
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
What is the purpose of the church?
Do you mean the Body of Christ or do you mean the building? The purpose of the building is to keep us from getting wet while the pastor speaks on rainy Sundays.
I really don't mean to be flippant. But "church" can and does happen anywhere and everywhere. The building merely makes it more comfortable in sub-zero temperatures.
_____________________________
I want everyone here to know that I agree with the Lioness on every issue. Even when I disagree with her!
The Lioness Rules and Rocks! ~ Bluestone
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 11:46:50 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 880
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
That is pretty simplistic.
You try summing up the entire institution of the local church, in all its diversity, in one post. ; )
quote:
How do you show love?
How did Christ show love? He met people where they were with truth.
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By replicating the things that cause men to stumble?
The Apostle Paul dialogued with the people of Athens in a philosophical way. The people of Athens idolized their philosophy, so was it wrong of Paul to use this method to reach people?
Also, as I've mentioned elsewhere on this thread, I don't hear anyone decrying people driving expensive cars to church. Is materialism not a sin anymore? If it is a sin, then how can we be sending this wrong example to non-believers?
quote:
By making the gospel appeal to the masses because it cannot on its own merits?
Jesus made the gospel appealing to the masses. Did He have the wrong idea?
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 11:50:55 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 880
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
My apologies. I didn't realize that you were looking for examples of the building. i thought you just wanted me to provide illustrations of specific ideology exampled.
Well, my apologies for the confusion! I was seeking specific examples addressing the concept of the local church building being holy. Looking back, I appreciate the examples you gave for the intent that you meant them for.
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 11:53:09 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 880
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
I know of many people whom drink. If they were to see a bar in a church, they would assume it's alright for them to do whatever they're doing, especially since the church is now doing it.
That is NOT setting an example for Christ.
Well, I disagree. But, not being a non-Christian, I can't say for sure how the world would take something like you describe, so this is pure speculation on my part.
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 12:38:04 AM
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Zhi
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Meh. Can I state for the record that my comments were based on the later change of venue that didn't involve alcohol, and therefore could not involve the potential for causing people to sin insofar as drunkenness? I think the whole alcohol thing is obfuscating the issue.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 1:12:29 AM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1119
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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I have to say I am sickened to see so many Christians placing the physical church BUILDING on such a pedistal. IT IS A BUILDING PEOPLE! News flash, there is nothing more holy about the baptist/methodist/presbyterian/ect building and the office building next door to it. NOTHING. All that goes on in that church "building" is that believers use that particular spot on earth to gather in HIS NAME. In Acts 7 Stephen lays it out quite clear that God was with His people, and that was not always where the tabernacle was at a particular moment. And when God WAS with the tabernacle it was because His people were there with it. Furthermore, there is NO comparision to the modern church building and the Tabernacle/Temple. The latter were ordained BY GOD and THAT was what made them special. Unless I am really missing something, no church today can say that God ordained its building. That God laid out its measurements and its furnishings. If 10 believers meet in a bar to talk about God, He is there just as much as if they met in a normal "church building". And if other people use the chruch building for something else, that does NOT negate what happens there when believers meet there later on in the week. What about "churches" who dont have a "church building" and meet in a school gym, or some other place? Are they less holy because they do nto have a building? Do their meetings suffer because a few days before some other group used that locality for non-biblical uses? How can anyone answer yes to that or other questions like it? God is NOT IN A BUILDING PEOPLE! He is in US HIS CHURCH THE BODY OF BELIEVERS. And no building, or what happens in that building, will ever or can ever change that.
If this church wants to invite this group from doing this at their building, then more power to them. I wonder if the complainers here on this board would be so upset or continue to be if several of these visiters to this music/drinking thing turn to God because their event was held at a church. Saddly probably some would.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 7:05:40 AM
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WesP
Posts: 2292
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
I have to say I am sickened to see so many Christians placing the physical church BUILDING on such a pedistal. IT IS A BUILDING PEOPLE! News flash, there is nothing more holy about the baptist/methodist/presbyterian/ect building and the office building next door to it. NOTHING. All that goes on in that church "building" is that believers use that particular spot on earth to gather in HIS NAME. In Acts 7 Stephen lays it out quite clear that God was with His people, and that was not always where the tabernacle was at a particular moment. And when God WAS with the tabernacle it was because His people were there with it. Furthermore, there is NO comparision to the modern church building and the Tabernacle/Temple. The latter were ordained BY GOD and THAT was what made them special. Unless I am really missing something, no church today can say that God ordained its building. That God laid out its measurements and its furnishings. If 10 believers meet in a bar to talk about God, He is there just as much as if they met in a normal "church building". And if other people use the chruch building for something else, that does NOT negate what happens there when believers meet there later on in the week. What about "churches" who dont have a "church building" and meet in a school gym, or some other place? Are they less holy because they do nto have a building? Do their meetings suffer because a few days before some other group used that locality for non-biblical uses? How can anyone answer yes to that or other questions like it? God is NOT IN A BUILDING PEOPLE! He is in US HIS CHURCH THE BODY OF BELIEVERS. And no building, or what happens in that building, will ever or can ever change that.
If this church wants to invite this group from doing this at their building, then more power to them. I wonder if the complainers here on this board would be so upset or continue to be if several of these visiters to this music/drinking thing turn to God because their event was held at a church. Saddly probably some would.
First of all, it has nothing to do with the building. It has to do with not embracing things of this world. We have a mission.
Second of all, referring to people who disagree with you as complainers is rather derogatory and undermines the conversation.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
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<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 7:34:04 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1580
Status: offline
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I can tell you this, the building itself is not the problem for me. It's what the building represents. I would feel this way if church were being held in a gym, and they wanting to have a live it up kind of night there too. ANYWHERE, people would gather to pray, fellowship, worship, teach and preach, would I find the notion of a secular jam session (with alcohol) and call it a ministry , I would have this same reaction.
I see in these responses the desensitization of the holiness of God. The awesome Almighty has been brought to level of humanness that says come as you are. I don't not see the humility of sinners, crying out to their God. I don't see the fear of the Lord in many of these responses. This is scary to me. The enemy has done a wonderful job of twisting and distorting His holiness.
I don't think the presence of alcohol is going to lead anyone closer to Christ than allowing for a joint to be present would either. Based on your logic, this too would be acceptable. And it has nothing to do with legality. So what's next, homosexual gatherings, speed balls. It's ok, God doesn't really expect any kind of character from his people. He really wants us to blend in because that's how we really reach people. He doesn't expect accountability or responsibility from His people. We are free after all and forgiven, right? 
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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