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[Poll]
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Is the church building a sacred or holy place?
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| Yes it is. secular activities should not go on there |
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| no, just a building. Use it for whatever is not sinful. |
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| I don't like secular in the sanctuary, but that is just my opinon. |
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| other |
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Total Votes : 42
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(last vote on : 8/16/2008 8:34:59 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/25/2008 2:15:01 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 3829
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
Could you elaborate on that, Dave? Cause I'm pretty sure I've swallowed some replacement theology. I could but that is way Off Topic on this thread and I have no time to get into it now. THere are a couple of old threads on Replacement Theology.
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/25/2008 2:16:13 PM
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car2ner
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quote:
Uhmmm... wouldn't a painting representing one's concept of Christ already have a mustache?
But along the same line, I've known folk to get their knickers in a knot over people like me that write in their Bible...
I'm an illustrator/cartoonist and I love to draw what the sermon pops into my mind. I used to set up paper, colored pencils,etc (next to my coffee cup) and draw the message. Most pastors got a kick out of it. If a pastor got uncomfortable with me drawing in church, than chances are that is not the body of believers that I belong in.
BTW, currently looking for a home church since we moved. Sigh.
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/26/2008 6:30:58 PM
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Kyrillos
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A honest question to those of you espousing the view that the church is "just a building": If the church is not sacred, then why bother going there every Sunday (or more)? God IS everywhere, after all (this I do most definitely agree with). You could just as easily invite a similarly-minded Christian friend over to your home or some other place to study the word there. I'm honestly trying my best not to sound snarky here; I'm sincerely curious as to why someone with this view would make it a point to go to a church at all, if it is "just a building".
I most definitely do agree with the "wherever two or more gather in my name..." passage, but I do not feel that it is a justification for the desacralization of the church. It is true that the church is a building, but it is a sacred building because it has been consecrated for the use of Christian believers in the worship of God.
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/26/2008 11:25:52 PM
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armydude
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Well ya know the church building I attend is the place that everyone agreed to meet. That's the main reason we go there.
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/27/2008 1:37:02 AM
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fallenstar
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I church is not a building or location. It is a group of people who come together to worship. I and a group used the woods as a sacred place, and I enjoyed that much better than indoors.
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/27/2008 4:09:49 AM
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Kyrillos
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Hahaha. But of course, armydude. Allow me to rephrase my question.
If a church is not a building or location, or if it is just a building or location, would you then be equally at home if everyone instead decided to gather in a hockey rink, circus tent, parking garage, or some other place that is not a church?
I see asserted in this thread (and embrace myself) this great idea of the church as the body of believers gathered together in worship, but I do not think that it should lead to an abandonment of the idea of the church as a sacred place. I do not see this as an "either-or" idea, but one where both are correct when working within different frames of understanding
I'd like to add, though it does not specifically "prove" the sacredness of church buildings, an idea: When much of the rest of the world routinely denies Christians their rights, it is often done through the seizure, desecration, and destruction of their lands, as is happening right now at Abu Fana Monastery in Egypt. These attacks are done with the specific intention of divesting Christians of their most sacred places - their churches, their monasteries - in short, the means by which they may freely practice their faith.
The underground "home" churches that thrive in areas where Christian churches are not legal or are defacto illegal are another dimension to this question. While they are great examples of courage, inspiration, and love of God, they are also signs of the extreme fragility of Christianity in some places. What would the consecration of physical, brick-and-mortar churches in such places represent? Say, for instance, churches in Saudi Arabia or Somalia. There ARE Christians in both countries, after all. Would they share the idea that their (hypothetical) church is "just a building", especially given the fact that they do not have the option of using other buildings?
I personally believe that the idea that churches are just buildings is a negative, secular influence in Christianity, though I am willing to concede that this may be a matter of doctrinal differences between different denominations, and those who disagree with this view no doubt have theologically sound reasons for doing so (within the doctrines preached by their denominations, that is).
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/27/2008 7:30:13 AM
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armydude
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I understand what you're asking. I'm not backpedaling when I say that I understand the importance of the church building. Without a church building a lot of people probably wouldn't attend in the US. The idea of attending church in a person's home, or another place is just too much for some people. But compared to the importance of the people, it's really not important. A church building without members is an empty building, while a church without a building is still a church.
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/27/2008 9:11:45 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
Is the church building a sacred or holy place?
Only when two or more are gathered there in the Name of Jesus.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/27/2008 4:44:47 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
Only when two or more are gathered there in the Name of Jesus.
Gathering in His Name being the key terms in this verse.
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Luke 8:16
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/27/2008 4:56:00 PM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Only when two or more are gathered there in the Name of Jesus.
Gathering in His Name being the key terms in this verse.
That was a verse?
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/27/2008 6:23:37 PM
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rcjames
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(Mat 18:20) For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
That's a verse.
Thsnks
RC
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/27/2008 6:58:12 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1185
Joined: 7/31/2007
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quote:
A honest question to those of you espousing the view that the church is "just a building": If the church is not sacred, then why bother going there every Sunday (or more)? God IS everywhere, after all (this I do most definitely agree with). You could just as easily invite a similarly-minded Christian friend over to your home or some other place to study the word there. I'm honestly trying my best not to sound snarky here; I'm sincerely curious as to why someone with this view would make it a point to go to a church at all, if it is "just a building".
I show up where the body of believers that I prefer to worship with on Sunday happen to be. Usually that's a building in town, today it was a campground picnic area out at the lake. In the past, it's been at a grade school, in a tent, and in someone's house.
If I don't consider the picnic area, grade school, tent, or house to be "sacred" and try to protect them from other, less "holy" meetings simply because we all showed up there to worship one day out of the week, I'm not sure why I would consider the building we meet in most of the time as requiring some sort of extra "holiness" protection.
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/27/2008 7:54:14 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I chose "no, just a building. Use it for whatever is not sinful."
However, in answer to post #18, as we all should know, from the beginning of Israel being a nation, even while traveling and homeless, G-d said there must be a Tabernacle built. That Tabernacle was specifically designed by G-d, from the rooms to the special stitching and colors. When David wanted to build a Temple, and Solomon built it, it somewhat copied the Tabernacle. These were holy places before our G-d: the Tabernacle being movable, the Temple being permanent.
As Judaism grew, as most of us know, they built synagogues, where they could worship G-d and study Torah locally, except for on the three main holy days, when the males, at least, would go to the Temple, which was only in Jerusalem. Synagogues were used for many things, but obviously, no unholy activities were to occur there.
For those communities that had no synagogues, people gathered in the homes of the rabbis and other learned persons for the same purposes as those for which they gathered in synagogues.
The early Judaism that thought that Messiah was, at minimum, a great teacher, and the early Judaism that understood who He really was -- the Son of the Almighty -- gathered in both synagogues and homes. Further, they gathered in the Temple.
These were the "particular" places set apart for the Judaisms, including believers in our Messiah, first met. It was later, as people shoved the Judaisms, Torah, and all things Jewish out of their midst, that churches were built. That is just the way it was. That's just history.
As one who does not believe that there are "secular versus holy" things and ideas, I see no reason that any good thing, practice, or activity cannot be practiced in a building intended for public gathering in order to worship. Only unholy things should not be done there, but then no believer should be involved in unholy activities anyway, so that should be understood without saying!
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/27/2008 8:18:19 PM
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lightshineon
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I do not think the building itself, will be taken up when Jesus comes again. We the Christians are the church. Things changed when Jesus came as far as temple laws. Jesus said that, in three days not a stone would remain. They thought he was taliking about the Temple, but himself. He is to be worshipped not a building. That is what is wrong in todays churches IMHO, building worship. Building bigger, better and such.
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/27/2008 8:47:05 PM
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Consecrated2God
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I agree with those that say that we are the temple of God. Church buildings are just buildings, and there is nothing wrong with using them for other purposes. I remember when we were growing up, we borrowed the church for a school activity and made an obstacle course for a military-type basic training thing we were doing. We have pictures of ropes strung across the pews and us kids crawling through them. 
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/27/2008 11:38:16 PM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
(Mat 18:20) For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
That's a verse.
Thsnks
RC
It just seemed to me like she was referring to what you said. My brain got stuck on that concept. Thanks for the kick start.
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/27/2008 11:51:02 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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But we have to also remember that there will be a holy Temple again some day, and those nations who refuse to come -- likely send representatives -- to it will not have rain. That prophecy was about a future event: this is understood because the things mentioned in the prophecy have not yet happened in history.
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Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/28/2008 12:35:21 AM
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eaglelady11
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it depends on who owns it and who holds the deed. spearkng from a legal, not a spiritual point of view, if the board of directors and the church administration own it, then they have a say about what goes on in the building. if church is held in a high school, then the space is rented out and the high school has a say even though "church" met in the gym on sunday. some churches are cool with an AA meeting going on because they hold their own insurance and are not affiliated with the church; others are not.
also , every organization has bylaws. a church is a business and its bylaws may saw no secular activities or support of activities we do not agree with in our belief system.
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/28/2008 7:44:16 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
(Mat 18:20) For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
That's a verse.
Thsnks
RC
It just seemed to me like she was referring to what you said. My brain got stuck on that concept. Thanks for the kick start.
I was referring to what RC said or the verse he was paraphrasing. Gathering in His Name means a focus on Him, for Him. There is a difference in a group of people be gathered together doing something, dressing it up and calling it church.
Gathering together to focus on Him can be church. Gathering to fellowship, Christian or not, and Jesus is not the one being focused on or honored is not church.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/28/2008 7:46:49 AM
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armydude
Posts: 15140
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Gathering in His Name means a focus on Him, for Him. There is a difference in a group of people be gathered together doing something, dressing it up and calling it church.
Gathering together to focus on Him can be church. Gathering to fellowship, Christian or not, and Jesus is not the one being focused on or honored is not church.
So if someone were to host a gathering that was focused on Jesus, even if someone else couldn't see the focus, it would still be church?
Got it.
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/28/2008 7:55:07 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1724
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Gathering in His Name means a focus on Him, for Him. There is a difference in a group of people be gathered together doing something, dressing it up and calling it church.
Gathering together to focus on Him can be church. Gathering to fellowship, Christian or not, and Jesus is not the one being focused on or honored is not church.
So if someone were to host a gathering that was focused on Jesus, even if someone else couldn't see the focus, it would still be church?
Got it.
I would think people gathering together to worship, praise, study, pray etc, people would know the primary focus before hand. It's not like we go places, walk in and hear "Surprise, it's Bible Study worship time". 
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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