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Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 8:07:41 AM
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deliveredarling
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Did Jesus have long term relationships with unbelievers?
This question came up in another thread.
In thinking about whether Jesus spent any significant time with unbelievers, I can't think of a single example. Not one that showed Him spending time to get to know someone or have a relationship with them in order to sway their beliefs.
If you have any examples, please post, because I'm very curious.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 8:09:04 AM
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JimboFletch
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Unless you think he was saved, which I do not, there was Judas Iscariot.
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 8:12:29 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
Unless you think he was saved, which I do not, there was Judas Iscariot.
I thought about him. I just wonder if he didn't turn apostate rather than being an unbeliever. He hung himself over grief of what he had done to the Lord. That would indicate a "knowledge" wouldn't it?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 8:18:37 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Unless you think he was saved, which I do not, there was Judas Iscariot.
I thought about him. I just wonder if he didn't turn apostate rather than being an unbeliever. He hung himself over grief of what he had done to the Lord. That would indicate a "knowledge" wouldn't it?
I guess we can make excuses so that the answer to your question will always come out no, if that's what we want. But my understanding of apostate is one who is around and involved with Christ but never being born again that eventually goes back into the world.
In any case, the scenario where Judas was saved, then lost casts a disconcerting image of Jesus as one unable to keep one of His closest converts from Satan, if he was a convert. Makes it seem hopeless for the rest of us...
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 8:31:49 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
I guess we can make excuses so that the answer to your question will always come out no, if that's what we want. But my understanding of apostate is one who is around and involved with Christ but never being born again that eventually goes back into the world.
In any case, the scenario where Judas was saved, then lost casts a
disconcerting image of Jesus as one unable to keep one of His closest converts from Satan, if he was a convert. Makes it seem hopeless for the rest of us...
First of all, I'm not looking to support a specific idea here. I'm open to explore it.
Secondly, I didn't get a hopeless idea from it at all. Choice came to mind.
From the biblical perspective on apostate we get this:
Hbr 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Hbr 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Hbr 6:6 and {then} have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Hbr 6:7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
Hbr 6:8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 8:45:28 AM
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JimboFletch
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There's a whole thread where people debate whether eternal life really means eternal or just until someone finds something more alluring than God the Son, King of all Kings and Sustainer of the Universe and, then, eternal life reverts to an unborn-again state. But even 5-Point Calvinists have no problem whatsoever with the passage you quoted and still do not regard it as meaning a born again, redeemed, joint-heir with Christ Jesus gets unborn-again.
I just can't imagine anyone having an intimate relationship with my Savior ever desiring to have their new birth aborted. But, I suppose, some folk want to keep all their options open...
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 8:46:00 AM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Unless you think he was saved, which I do not, there was Judas Iscariot.
I thought about him. I just wonder if he didn't turn apostate rather than being an unbeliever. He hung himself over grief of what he had done to the Lord. That would indicate a "knowledge" wouldn't it?
Knowledge about Jesus does not equal belief in Jesus. He knew who Jesus was, but that knowledge had no effect on him.
I'd say Judas was an unbeliever.
_____________________________
Good question, you think?
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 9:16:41 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
There's a whole thread where people debate whether eternal life really means eternal or just until someone finds something more alluring than God the Son, King of all Kings and Sustainer of the Universe and, then, eternal life reverts to an unborn-again state. But even 5-Point Calvinists have no problem whatsoever with the passage you quoted and still do not regard it as meaning a born again, redeemed, joint-heir with Christ Jesus gets unborn-again.
I'm not trying to argue for this or against it. My bible has titles underneath the chapters and the above scripture is titled " the peril of falling away". I t seemed fitting to Judas' situation.
quote:
I just can't imagine anyone having an intimate relationship with my Savior ever desiring to have their new birth aborted.
Neither can I.
quote:
Knowledge about Jesus does not equal belief in Jesus.
This is very true.
So Judas is a good example of a fake then?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 9:22:21 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I'm not trying to argue for this or against it. My bible has titles underneath the chapters and the above scripture is titled " the peril of falling away". I t seemed fitting to Judas' situation.
Just keep in mind that those titles and notes in your Bible are some man's interpretation and are not from any original manuscripts (just like chapter and verse divisions are not in the original). They can be helpful, but can also be misleading - even in the references added to supposedly connect the verse to other passages.
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 9:23:35 AM
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rcjames
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During the three years of Jesus' life that we know about he was doing the equivalent of the ministry of an "Evangelist"; telling folks the good news. That just does not lead to "Long term realationships".
Long term speaks to fewer folks, and Jesus took the Good News to as many as possible. He did not waste time on unbelievers who were unresponsive and insturcted his diciples to do the same;
(Mat 10:12) And when ye come into an house, salute it.
(Mat 10:13) And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
(Mat 10:14) And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Now if one has a relationship with Jesus is it long term: Oh yea, it is forever!
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 9:28:02 AM
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deliveredarling
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Thank you RC. This then begs the question, if we are to follow Jesus' example are we to evangelize or invest time in relationships with unbelievers?
I keep hearing people say Jesus hung out with sinners. I just don't see biblical examples of this. Short term education opportunities, yes, but not hanging out as buddies.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 9:43:17 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Thank you RC. This then begs the question, if we are to follow Jesus' example are we to evangelize or invest time in relationships with unbelievers?
I keep hearing people say Jesus hung out with sinners. I just don't see biblical examples of this. Short term education opportunities, yes, but not hanging out as buddies.
Then is it your conclusion tha Judas was saved for three years then sold out for the price of a slave? That question has to be settled before making such statements.
And what do you consider long term - His public ministry was only about 3 years?
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 10:08:53 AM
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bluestone
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Jesus was not in long term relationships, but He travelled a lot.
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I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 10:15:00 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
Jesus was not in long term relationships, but He travelled a lot.
Who was that crew that left all and followed Him, especially that odd group of 12?
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 10:34:16 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Thank you RC. This then begs the question, if we are to follow Jesus' example are we to evangelize or invest time in relationships with unbelievers?
I keep hearing people say Jesus hung out with sinners. I just don't see biblical examples of this. Short term education opportunities, yes, but not hanging out as buddies.
You are correct, Christ did not "Hang out" with sinners, he was in the company of some and spoke the truth to them; I do not consider this "Hanging out".
The quistion is how much time should we spend trying to convince someone of the truth of the Gospel?
Should it be a life time, a week, a month?
Now the typical answer is "How ever long it takes", but I disagree with this as not being Biblically sound.
It should be long enough for them to see Jesus in our lives, hear the truth of the Gospel, and answer questions; if they steadfastly refuse to "Recieve" then deal with someone else.
Does this mean that we are to not speak to that person or not be kind to that person; no as we must always live the Christ that is in us. But getting into long term (weeks, month, years) apologetics with someone who loves their darkness more than the truth of the Light is unfruitful.
I have about decided that many times these "Long term" things are just a ploy of the enemy to distract us from someone who whould recieve the truth of the Gospel.
Example; I live in rural Oklahoma, and have "Witnessed" to every one in the area; some have recieved most have not. I still see the folks, am kind to them, ask about thier kids, etc.; but they know I am a minister and periodically one of them will come and seek counsel, and onece in a while one of them will get saved and join my Church or another Church in the ares. I do not argue "Religion" eith them, nor answer baiting questions that many seem to come up with.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 7/25/2008 10:41:19 AM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 10:44:30 AM
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doinkdom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Thank you RC. This then begs the question, if we are to follow Jesus' example are we to evangelize or invest time in relationships with unbelievers?
I believe both are in order and biblically substantiated. There is an awful lot of information in scripture specific to relationships, conflict, when to stay, when to leave, etc. to ignore if we don't invest in others.
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I keep hearing people say Jesus hung out with sinners. I just don't see biblical examples of this. Short term education opportunities, yes, but not hanging out as buddies.
I think it's far more important to look at the attitude Jesus had towards others. He talked and spent an entirely different quality and amount of time with the Pharisees than He did with non-believers or believers who were not "religious."
Jesus didn't have time for buddies - He is the Son of God with a well-defined purpose for the few years He walked this earth. Jesus knew we would remain behind and therefore, much of his teaching was about caring for one another, etc. How to live in community, how to love one another.
I get that the whole relationship-evangelism style annoys people because of the extreme misunderstanding that people allow relationships to go on for ten years before sharing the Gospel. I don't know of anyone who does this, but it is the arrow that is shot by those who would rather "bullhorn" someone than sit down to a spiritual conversation.
No accusations...just sayin.
Using the argument that Jesus did not have long-term relationships to somehow rationalize why we shouldn't is a hard argument for us today because, as was already pointed out...His earthbound ministry was only 3 years long.
I think we can have long term unbelieving relationships...are those the particular relationships where I spend the majority of my time? Of course not. But, I will serve them as the Father would have me do when the opportunity arises, not knowing what His timing will be for their lives.
Case in point...our neighbor (single dad) is an unbeliever, but we serve him with dinners for him and the kids and in other neighborly ways. We don't stick chik-tracts in his casseroles and we don't talk down to him, but we do extend the love of our Lord and will continue to do so.
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 10:53:24 AM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Thank you RC. This then begs the question, if we are to follow Jesus' example are we to evangelize or invest time in relationships with unbelievers?
I keep hearing people say Jesus hung out with sinners. I just don't see biblical examples of this. Short term education opportunities, yes, but not hanging out as buddies.
The general idea is that Jesus did not turn people away because they were sinners.
Matthew 9:11, Mark 2:16, and Luke 15:2 are all good examples of the Pharisees accusing Jesus of eating with sinners.
Matthew 10:12-14 are good references to the idea of walking away from people that won't accept your words, but what about those that accept that what you're saying is true and just aren't ready to make a decision? That happens a lot. Should we just walk away? How many people wouldn't be saved today if Christians took this approach? "Well I'm gonna give you the good news once, but if you don't accept it, I'm gone." That's exactly what I'm reading here. Am I incorrect?
_____________________________
Good question, you think?
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 11:01:58 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
The general idea is that Jesus did not turn people away because they were sinners.
Matthew 9:11, Mark 2:16, and Luke 15:2 are all good examples of the Pharisees accusing Jesus of eating with sinners.
Matthew 10:12-14 are good references to the idea of walking away from people that won't accept your words, but what about those that accept that what you're saying is true and just aren't ready to make a decision? That happens a lot. Should we just walk away? How many people wouldn't be saved today if Christians took this approach? "Well I'm gonna give you the good news once, but if you don't accept it, I'm gone." That's exactly what I'm reading here. Am I incorrect?
No you are correct, the only djifference is that the most of us are not traveling evangelist, and are around the same folks even after they have rejected Christ.
So what to do?
I just live my life in a Godly fashion and am availible if they are drawn at some later time. To keep on and on and on with the witnessing seems, to me at least, to be counter productive.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 11:18:04 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
Then is it your conclusion tha Judas was saved for three years then sold out for the price of a slave?
I haven't settled on a conclusion yet.
quote:
And what do you consider long term - His public ministry was only about 3 years?
I really don't have a specific number in mind, maybe 6 months?
Just exploring the idea here, that's all.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 11:18:58 AM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
The general idea is that Jesus did not turn people away because they were sinners.
Matthew 9:11, Mark 2:16, and Luke 15:2 are all good examples of the Pharisees accusing Jesus of eating with sinners.
Matthew 10:12-14 are good references to the idea of walking away from people that won't accept your words, but what about those that accept that what you're saying is true and just aren't ready to make a decision? That happens a lot. Should we just walk away? How many people wouldn't be saved today if Christians took this approach? "Well I'm gonna give you the good news once, but if you don't accept it, I'm gone." That's exactly what I'm reading here. Am I incorrect?
No you are correct, the only djifference is that the most of us are not traveling evangelist, and are around the same folks even after they have rejected Christ.
So what to do?
I just live my life in a Godly fashion and am availible if they are drawn at some later time. To keep on and on and on with the witnessing seems, to me at least, to be counter productive.
It does seem to me that there is a huge difference between not actively witnessing and no longer being around them. You're living your life in a Godly fashion, but if you don't live that life where it can be seen, (around them) does it do any good?
_____________________________
Good question, you think?
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 11:19:48 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
I don't think that Jesus' example in this is necessarily an example we're supposed to follow. After all, we lead much more settled lives (for the most part) than Jesus did in His ministry.
very good point!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Did Jesus have long term relationships.... - 7/25/2008 11:22:34 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1733
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quote:
You are correct, Christ did not "Hang out" with sinners, he was in the company of some and spoke the truth to them; I do not consider this "Hanging out".
The quistion is how much time should we spend trying to convince someone of the truth of the Gospel?
Should it be a life time, a week, a month?
Now the typical answer is "How ever long it takes", but I disagree with this as not being Biblically sound.
It should be long enough for them to see Jesus in our lives, hear the truth of the Gospel, and answer questions; if they steadfastly refuse to "Recieve" then deal with someone else.
Does this mean that we are to not speak to that person or not be kind to that person; no as we must always live the Christ that is in us. But getting into long term (weeks, month, years) apologetics with someone who loves their darkness more than the truth of the Light is unfruitful.
I have about decided that many times these "Long term" things are just a ploy of the enemy to distract us from someone who whould recieve the truth of the Gospel.
Example; I live in rural Oklahoma, and have "Witnessed" to every one in the area; some have recieved most have not. I still see the folks, am kind to them, ask about thier kids, etc.; but they know I am a minister and periodically one of them will come and seek counsel, and onece in a while one of them will get saved and join my Church or another Church in the ares. I do not argue "Religion" eith them, nor answer baiting questions that many seem to come up with.
I fully agree with this. The enemy can become such the distraction. Also, our egos getting involved sometimes make more about us succeeding than in the person' salvation.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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