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The Trinity - 7/26/2008 8:02:39 PM
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faithfulservant_
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The scripture reveals that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God. Therefore, God is (3 in 1 and 1 in 3) which means that Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. How is this rationally and ideologically possible? The common sense answer is H20.
1. Water, Steam, and Ice = H20
2. H20 = 3 distinct forms.
3. All 3 forms can exist simultaneously and can also coexist as one.
< Message edited by faithfulservant_ -- 7/28/2008 6:54:32 PM >
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RE: The explanation of the Trinity - 7/26/2008 8:40:39 PM
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MrFribbles
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There's one problem with that - water cannot be ice and steam, ice cannot be water and steam, and steam cannot be water and ice. The H20 analogy isn't a bad start, but taken to it's logical conclusion, it preaches modalism - that God became the Son, who became the Holy Spirit, and only one member of the Godhead exists at any given time.
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: The explanation of the Trinity - 7/26/2008 8:52:08 PM
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faithfulservant_
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Hello Fribble man!
I have to disagree. I studied the Sabellianism/modalism theory at my University (I was a religious studies major) and I also took a earth science class. Therefore, I can rightfully say that the explanation I gave does not preach Sabellianism.
< Message edited by faithfulservant_ -- 7/27/2008 4:09:34 PM >
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RE: The explanation of the Trinity - 7/26/2008 8:53:38 PM
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MrFribbles
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Then how do you explain the fact that H20 cannot coexist in the three states simultaneously, as God clearly does?
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: The explanation of the Trinity - 7/27/2008 2:18:16 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Then how do you explain the fact that H20 cannot coexist in the three states simultaneously, as God clearly does?
The triple point of water. The single combination of pressure and temperature at which water, ice, and water vapour can coexist in a stable equilibrium occurs at exactly 273.16 K (0.01 °C) and a partial vapour pressure of 611.73 pascals (ca. 6.1173 millibars, 0.0060373057 atm).
I agree, though, that it is a bad example. It is clearly modalistic.
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RE: The explanation of the Trinity - 7/27/2008 2:34:15 PM
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wayward1
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What is meant to be gained by this analogy? -If you don't mind me asking
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RE: The explanation of the Trinity - 7/27/2008 3:45:08 PM
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faithfulservant_
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People seem to be confused about the heretical Sabellianism/modalism theory. The explanation I gave of the Trinity does not preach Sabellianism. It would be very foolish of me to preach heresy in a Christian thread, that is like self-condemnation. I would be in serious trouble if I led even one sheep astray, according to scripture. Here is the actual definition of Sabellianism/modalism heresy.
quote:
Monarchianism had two primary forms, Dynamic Monarchianism and Modalistic Monarchianism. Dynamic Monarchianism is the view that Jesus was not in His nature God. It is the view that God existed in Jesus, just as God exists in all of us – but that God existed in Jesus in a particularly powerful way. Jesus was God because God inhabited Him.
Modalistic Monarchianism, also known as Modalism, is the view that God variously manifested Himself as the Father (primarily in the Old Testament), other times as the Son (primarily from Jesus’ conception to His ascension), and other times as the Holy Spirit (primarily after Jesus’ ascension into Heaven). God is not three Persons. Rather, Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism teaches the God has simply revealed Himself in three different modes.
Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism is also known as Sabellianism, named after Sabellius, and influential early proponent of Modalism. Sabellianism teaches that God was said to have three "modes." Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son. After Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. Modalists note that the only number ascribed to God in the Holy Bible is ONE and that there is no inherent threeness ascribed to God explicitly in scripture.
Yet another aspect of Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism / Sabellianism is Patripassianism which is the view that it was God the Father who became incarnate, suffered, died, and was resurrected. Patripassianism essentially teaches that God the Father became His own Son.
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RE: The explanation of the Trinity - 7/27/2008 4:20:11 PM
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TrustingGod
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Faith.
That explains it to me. I don't want to completely understand God because then He is not greater than me! I'm glad He is bigger than my mind.
Father, Son, Spirit - three yet one, one yet three. Awesome.
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RE: The explanation of the Trinity - 7/27/2008 8:14:18 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son. After Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous
Now, if I may change it a tad bit...
quote:
Thus, H2O is a single element which first manifested itself in the mode of ice at less than 0 degrees Celsius. At the more than 1 degree Celsius, the mode was water. After water reaches 100 degrees Celsius, the mode is steam. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous
Does that clarify at all?
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: The explanation of the Trinity - 7/27/2008 8:35:31 PM
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JamesL5
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faithful,
I understand it. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, three yet one and one yet three, right? That is all we need to know. Praise God!
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RE: The explanation of the Trinity - 7/28/2008 8:18:18 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son. After Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous
"And Jesus, when he (the son) was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven,(The Father) saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." [Mat 3:16-17]
What then is the meaning of "These modes are consecutive and NEVER SIMULTANEOUS?"
I saw an argument one time that the events happened "consecutively" not "simultaneously." I then would question what "descending and lighting upon him" means. The two would have to be simultaneous for one to light upon the other. And while one was lited upon the other, the voice from heaven testified. Sounds like simultinaity to me.
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RE: The explanation of the Trinity - 7/28/2008 1:08:25 PM
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faithfulservant_
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quote:
original: theo_book
What then is the meaning of "These modes are consecutive and NEVER SIMULTANEOUS?"
This is why the Sabellianism/modalism theory is a heresy. They believe that Jesus was God but they also believe there is only ONE God. In other words, there are absolutely no threeness or 3 distinct forms of God. Each incident in the bible happened in a sequence, so there was never a simultaneous moment went all 3 forms of God were individually present. Therefore, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are actually ONE God. This is heresy.
< Message edited by faithfulservant_ -- 7/28/2008 1:19:41 PM >
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RE: The explanation of the Trinity - 7/28/2008 3:07:58 PM
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drmark
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quote:
How is this rationally and ideologically possible? I personally feel that a much better (physical) explanation for the Trinity is the triune nature of physical reality - space, matter, and time - each with their own triune natures. For a more thorough discussion, please read:
The Tri-Universe by Henry Morris
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The Trinity - 7/28/2008 4:03:07 PM
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faithfulservant_
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drmark,
The 3 persons theory is irrational and ideologically implausible. For example, if you say that each of the 3 people are Gods, then that equivocally means there are 3 Gods. On the other hand, if you say that the 3 people are not Gods, then you are denying the diety of Jesus Christ. Does this make sense?
This is the reason I used the logical H2O model, so that people will not be decieved to think that we worship 3 Gods or worship only ONE God. On the contrary, we worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who are one God, three yet one and one yet three. This is the most important thing Christians need to know.
< Message edited by faithfulservant_ -- 7/30/2008 2:57:40 AM >
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RE: The Trinity - 7/28/2008 4:18:36 PM
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drmark
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quote:
The 3 person theory is irrational and ideologically impossible. Well, I completely disagree. As you can read from the article I cited, all of natural reality is explainable and experienced in three aspects. We cannot understand material nature without space, matter, and time. Obviously, physical existence is NOT "irrational or ideologically impossible"! Now, if you want to argue that the existence of the supernatural is irrational and ideologically impossible, that is another issue entirely.
quote:
Does this make sense? Does what make sense? The Trinity does not have to make sense - it is the Nature of God! I have shown with an explanation of physical reality as the tri-universe that the nature of Nature is also a trinity. Does existence make sense to you?
quote:
On the contrary, we believe in and worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who are one God, three yet one and one yet three. Exactly, just like our unique bodies of specific matter exist in specified space through some duration of time - three yet one and one yet three.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The Trinity - 7/28/2008 5:48:57 PM
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bob97
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quote:
The 3 persons theory is irrational and ideologically impossible. For example, if you say that each of the 3 people are Gods, then that equivocally means there are 3 Gods. On the other hand, if you say that the 3 people are not Gods, then you are denying the diety of Jesus Christ. You cannot have it both ways, it is either one or the other........
Wow!
What does the bible say about Christ? Does it not say that "Christ is the visible image of the invisible God" (Col 1:15)? Hebrews says it a little differently “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person”. God is invisible and without form, the bible is very clear regarding that fact...therefore for God to interact within this physical realm He manifested a physical body whom is Christ. Thus you have God existing and Christ existing both at the same time and both are God. They are different identities but are both of the same existence. The Holy Spirit is the perfect will God/Christ and because He lives within man is also a separate identity. So you have two manifestations of God… Christ and the Holy Spirit both existing at the same time with the invisible God.
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Trinity - 7/28/2008 6:49:56 PM
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faithfulservant_
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quote:
original: bob97
The Holy Spirit is the perfect will God/Christ and because He lives within man is also a separate identity. So you have two manifestations of God....Christ and the Holy Spirit both existing at the same time with the invisible God.
Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are not manifestations of God. The manifestation theory is a heresy. Please go back and look at my H2O model, it is very straightforward and simple. It clearly states that Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. This means all 3 are able to exist simultaneously and coeixist as one. God is three yet one and one yet three. It is beyond human comprehension (this is why I used the H2O model), we just need to believe this is possible.
< Message edited by faithfulservant_ -- 7/30/2008 2:58:08 AM >
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RE: The Trinity - 7/29/2008 12:18:29 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are not manifestations of God. The manifestation theory is a heresy.
Then how do you explain Col. 1:15?
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: The Trinity - 7/29/2008 12:23:54 PM
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drmark
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quote:
therefore for God to interact within this physical realm He manifested a physical body whom is Christ. Thus you have God existing and Christ existing both at the same time and both are God. Did Christ's existence end when His physical body died?
quote:
Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are not manifestations of God. The manifestation theory is a heresy. Colossians 1:15 clearly states that Christ is a manifestation of God. What makes "manifestation theory" heretical is its concept of the subordination of Jesus Christ as merely a temporary manifestation in the flesh of the eternal God. I am quite sure this is NOT what bob97 believes!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The Trinity - 7/29/2008 1:17:48 PM
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bob97
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There seems to be a difference between a spiritual body and a fleshly body. For Christ to be born of flesh is a temporary existences, the same as our current existences which is temporary and we will one day have spiritual bodies as Christ. Does Christ exist today in a spiritual body…it would have to be my understanding that He does. Does God exist in a visible form…once again from what the bible tells us, yes He does but that form is Christ Himself.
It gets right back to the original position. God is with form and invisible and Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. This much we know from high authority because God tells us this is true.
If people struggle with the term of manifestation, I don’t understand why because that is exactly what is described in Col 1:15; a perceptible, outward, or visible expression of something unseen.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Trinity - 7/29/2008 1:23:58 PM
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bob97
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By the way...manifestation is the exact word that R.C. Sproul uses in his teaching...for what is worth.
My self, I tend to think him to be a pretty good biblical authority.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Trinity - 7/29/2008 2:07:02 PM
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wayward1
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So, could someone let me in on what is meant to be gained by this? It sounds like ad hoc rationalization meant to avoid falsification by "rational or ideological" means.
You don't need to do that. Faith is enough. Any effort to find material comparison to God, including those made to space and time and matter, will not only be in vain, but will minimize God by supposing He is comparable to some physical thing.
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RE: The Trinity - 7/29/2008 2:31:48 PM
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bob97
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Well wayward...it's important to me because I belong to God...He lives inside of me and I in Him. I want to understand my Father to the fullest extent that I'm allowed. To me this is a very personal relationship.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Trinity - 7/29/2008 2:31:48 PM
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drmark
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quote:
You don't need to do that. Faith is enough. Any effort to find material comparison to God, including those made to space and time and matter, will not only be in vain, but will minimize God by supposing He is comparable to some physical thing. Plenty of folks posting here freely admit that their faith is not enough! Quite the contrary, I see comparisons to God quite helpful in developing a rudimentary understanding of difficult theological concepts. I am not at all "minimizing God" - in fact I'm maximizing His incomparable Majesty by ackowledging my feeble attempts to comprehend His Majesty just a little bit better. Try it sometime, wayward1, you might like it!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The Trinity - 7/29/2008 2:40:18 PM
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wayward1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
You don't need to do that. Faith is enough. Any effort to find material comparison to God, including those made to space and time and matter, will not only be in vain, but will minimize God by supposing He is comparable to some physical thing. Plenty of folks posting here freely admit that their faith is not enough! Quite the contrary, I see comparisons to God quite helpful in developing a rudimentary understanding of difficult theological concepts. I am not at all "minimizing God" - in fact I'm maximizing His incomparable Majesty by ackowledging my feeble attempts to comprehend His Majesty just a little bit better. Try it sometime, wayward1, you might like it!
I might. Thanks for explaining.
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