RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead, 8 injured
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RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 11:01:40 PM
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SteveSund
Posts: 726
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
House fires are an everyday event. shootings in churches are not.
True, I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison. You may choose to not carry in church and I will choose to do so. The odds I will be attacked in my daily life are very slim. That being said, it isn't a huge difficulty to carry. I enjoy the discipline of training and think that the skills involved are generally useful and I think it is not helpful to rely on odds as protection.
quote:
If your church has serious concerns about safety in this area, perhaps a detection device sweeping people for weapons as they enter the building would be more effective. And less deadly for those of us who have fellow church members we would not want to see with guns in services.
Metal detectors cost thousands of dollars. It would also require that people empty their pockets of change and keys. They would also do absolutely nothing to prevent a determined attacker. As for those of you that don't want to see people with guns, I am still waiting for some example of a law-abiding church member losing it. You are quick to point out how you don't think citizens should be armed in church because of the rarity of an attack, but you are afraid of something that is even more unlikely.
quote:
Now, there is no way I can think of to calculate what the accidental shooting or rage or arguments type shooting would be if a percentage of congregations begin to bring guns to church, but common sense says that it would increase.
Unfortunately, common sense is neither common, nor sensible. There are some states that allow citizens to carry in church. You will also find that some people carry in no-carry zones, believing that it is better to be judged by twelve, then carried by six. Common sense would tell me that if there was a rise in rage or argument shootings in churches, there would be some evidence. I can't even find any anecdotal evidence. My state, MI, allows carry in church. The state police compile data on concealed pistol permit holders. That data shows that, as a group, CPL holders are very law abiding and commit very few crimes. I couldn't find any evidence that a CPL holder broke any law in a church. I can't speak for other states.
quote:
It's still murder, even if it's in self defense.
No, it is not. As someone has previously pointed out, self-defense cannot be murder. They are incompatible. This is has been the case for thousands of years and is probably one of the longest standing legal maxims.
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RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/31/2008 8:30:41 AM
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duderox4lisa
Posts: 303
Joined: 10/5/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Here's hoping that doesn't happen.
I, however, wouldn't be surprised if on the other side of the curtain we find out that God allowed this happen because that specific church has placed a seal of approval on the homosexual lifestyle. I wouldn't hold my breath, but it wouldn't tremendously surprise me either.
Adam
So that's what God does, show His disapproval by "allowing" certain disgruntled individuals to administer divine justice through the barrel of a gun upon those we don't agree with??
Last time I checked, that kind of God is completely foreign to me.
_____________________________
If there isn't light when no one sees
Then how can I know what you might believe?
A story told that can't be real
Somehow must reflect the truth we feel
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RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/31/2008 10:43:17 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2473
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
So that's what God does, show His disapproval by "allowing" certain disgruntled individuals to administer divine justice through the barrel of a gun upon those we don't agree with??
I would be more concerned about the judgement they will receive at the Great White Throne Judgement. They won't be singing "Tomorrow, Tomorrow, Tomorrow."
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 8/1/2008 8:27:50 AM
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duderox4lisa
Posts: 303
Joined: 10/5/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
So that's what God does, show His disapproval by "allowing" certain disgruntled individuals to administer divine justice through the barrel of a gun upon those we don't agree with??
I would be more concerned about the judgement they will receive at the Great White Throne Judgement. They won't be singing "Tomorrow, Tomorrow, Tomorrow."
WHATEVER.
Does it just really frustrate you no end that some people have different beliefs, and it's because of judgemental attitudes like this that they have switched from a stern, dogmatic system of religious rules to something they feel is a little less hardcore and severe?
I'm thinking about the families and friends who have lost loved ones. I think about the children who were taking part in a happy occasion now having to deal with the horror and the trauma of a gunman killing people they know with an "instrument of God's justice". They'll most likely have to receive counselling for the rest of their lives.
_____________________________
If there isn't light when no one sees
Then how can I know what you might believe?
A story told that can't be real
Somehow must reflect the truth we feel
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RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 8/1/2008 9:11:44 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2473
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
WHATEVER.
Does it just really frustrate you no end that some people have different beliefs, and it's because of judgemental attitudes like this that they have switched from a stern, dogmatic system of religious rules to something they feel is a little less hardcore and severe?
I would be more concerned about what Scripture says about the individuals. It doesn't matter what they FEEL but what scripture SAYS.
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 8/2/2008 8:44:39 AM
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duderox4lisa
Posts: 303
Joined: 10/5/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
WHATEVER.
Does it just really frustrate you no end that some people have different beliefs, and it's because of judgemental attitudes like this that they have switched from a stern, dogmatic system of religious rules to something they feel is a little less hardcore and severe?
I would be more concerned about what Scripture says about the individuals. It doesn't matter what they FEEL but what scripture SAYS.
Right now, these people are feeling devastated. What does your Scripture say about that?
_____________________________
If there isn't light when no one sees
Then how can I know what you might believe?
A story told that can't be real
Somehow must reflect the truth we feel
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RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 8/2/2008 3:40:56 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2473
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
Right now, these people are feeling devastated. What does your Scripture say about that?
First of all, it isn't MY scripture. They are devestated and are in grief
Psa 34:18 (ESV) 18 The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit.
Isa 61:1 - 2 (ESV) 1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor;£ he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;£ 2 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn;
Psa 147:3 (ESV) 3 He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds.
But Jesus says He is the only way to eternal life despite what is taught by the UU church
John 14:5 - 7 (ESV) 5Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” 6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.£ From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
John 8:20 - 24 (ESV) 20These words he spoke in the treasury, as he taught in the temple; but no one arrested him, because his hour had not yet come. 21So he said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.” 22So the Jews said, “Will he kill himself, since he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
Matt 7:13 - 14 (ESV) 13“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy£ that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Matt 7:21 - 23 (ESV) 21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
John 3:16 - 21 (ESV) 16“For God so loved the world,£ that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. ]19And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 20For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.”
These aren't my scripture but the Word of God. The ones who were killed will be judged based only what they did with Jesus Christ.
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 8/7/2008 11:12:43 AM
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revbob4God
Posts: 566
Joined: 7/25/2008
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quote:
No one, even Unitarians, even homosexual supporting ones, NO ONE, deserves this happening.
Unfortunately I would not be surprised if the nuts from Westboro start coming out and praising the nut who shot this gathering up.
Amen.
Other information revealed his wife sought a protection order.
(Quote from colliefan) I would be more concerned about the judgement they will receive at the Great White Throne Judgement. They won't be singing "Tomorrow, Tomorrow, Tomorrow." (End Colliefan quote)
This deranged individual planned this heinous event and he opened fire during a children's' play.
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 8/7/2008 4:14:04 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2473
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
This deranged individual planned this heinous event and he opened fire during a children's' play.
and he will be subject to the same judgement as the church members
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 8/7/2008 4:23:41 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 898
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: The North Woods
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You truly dismay me. Two people have been murdered in a house of worship, and all you see fit to do is hide behind scripture and hurl judgment at the victims.
If you truly feel so devout about your beliefs in this matter, why don't you drive to Tennessee, and bellow at them from all the church's front step?
If you're lucky, I suspect Fred Phelps and his demented family may be there to join in your judgmental hoe-down.
< Message edited by todd_t -- 8/7/2008 4:35:40 PM >
_____________________________
Cubs Magic Number: 22 and dropping....
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RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 8/7/2008 4:39:34 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2473
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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The murder of these individuals IS a tragedy. But Scipture states those who reject Jesus Christ as Savior will be subject to the final judgement. The UU church teaches a false gospel that all will be saved.
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 8/7/2008 4:49:55 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 898
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: The North Woods
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Do you share such insight with relatives of Holocaust survivors as well? After all, the majority of them were Jews, not Christians.
I think it'd be your Christian duty to tell them their slain loved ones are likely burning in hell right now.
Or would that be in poor taste?
_____________________________
Cubs Magic Number: 22 and dropping....
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RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 8/7/2008 8:13:50 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3613
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
Do you share such insight with relatives of Holocaust survivors as well? After all, the majority of them were Jews, not Christians.
I think it'd be your Christian duty to tell them their slain loved ones are likely burning in hell right now.
Or would that be in poor taste?
In the end what matters more, their feelings or their eternal standing with God?
Would it be best to lie to them? And later if they do find the truth of God's word and they realize they'd been lied to I am sure that will go over well.. It's like folks who for whatever reason shy away from the OT and talk about Jesus doing this and that, not condemning sinners, no mention of homosexuals... Of course over time the person will venture into the OT and oh my why does God seem so awful this isn't what they told me about after the alter call... No wonder they told me to stay in the gospels... A thread of the nature will pop up from time to time...
John
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RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 8/7/2008 8:36:09 PM
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zmanfan38
Posts: 9601
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: ...for it's root, root, root for the CUBBIES!!!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
In the end what matters more, their feelings or their eternal standing with God?
John
We both know that the second part of your question is what matters most, but pointing out somebody's faults just after some of their loved ones have been murdered is not conducive to bringing them to Christ. You gotta show them love to do that.
_____________________________
«Christi»
Heal my heart and make it clean
Open up my eyes to the things unseen
Show me how to love like You have loved me
Hosanna by Hillsong <Link
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RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 8/7/2008 9:01:18 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2473
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
We both know that the second part of your question is what matters most, but pointing out somebody's faults just after some of their loved ones have been murdered is not conducive to bringing them to Christ. You gotta show them love to do that.
agreed, timing is what is key
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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), but two people are dead and the children who witnessed the shooting are hurting very much.
