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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2005 5:47:04 PM
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oopsmartin
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quote:
Therefore I cannot accept the assertion that the husband and the wife are equal when there is no scriptural evidence to support such a position.
Thank you for coming right out and saying that women are not equal with men, or is it only within the marriage in your opinion.
Don't have time to go into it now, but I do not agree that husbands or men are equal with God and Christ.
Will get back when I'm on the puter next.
Aloha,
_____________________________
Warrior of the Double-Edged Sword
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/21/2005 1:36:54 PM
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oopsmartin
Posts: 1162
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quote:
Therefore I cannot accept the assertion that the husband and the wife are equal when there is no scriptural evidence to support such a position.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Sons and Heirs
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. NKJV
25But once a person has learned to have faith, there is no more need to have the Law as a teacher.
26All of you are God's children because of your faith in Christ Jesus. 27And when you were baptized, it was as though you had put on Christ in the same way you put on new clothes. 28Faith in Christ Jesus is what makes each of you equal with each other, whether you are a Jew or a Greek, a slave or a free person, a man or a woman.
29So if you belong to Christ, you are now part of Abraham's family, [a] and you will be given what God has promised. CEV
25But now that the faith has come, we are no longer under a trainer (the guardian of our childhood).
26For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith.
27For as many [of you] as were baptized into Christ [into a spiritual union and communion with Christ, the Anointed One, the Messiah] have put on (clothed yourselves with) Christ.
28There is [now no distinction] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male [a]and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if you belong to Christ [are in Him Who is Abraham's Seed], then you are Abraham's offspring and [spiritual] heirs according to promise. AMP
There are two things to notice here for our discussion. 1) what is the common thread in the comparisons of : Jew vs Greek, slave vs. free, male vs. female? 2) why do some Bible choose to translate huios as “sons” instead of legitimate heirs, descendents, children?
The common thread is that each of those are comparisons with one superior and the other inferior in most cultures.
The difference between translating huios as “children”, even “legitimate children”, is that translators wanted us to catch that Paul’s point emphasizes that everyone in those groups becomes equal in receiving the full inheritance such as full sons enjoyed in the cultures of the time. Regardless if one is Greek, slave, female, they will put on the spiritual clothes of one who is entitled to the full and complete inheritance (a legitimate son), receiving all of what God has promised. This puts them all on the same level ground at the foot of the cross and makes them spiritually equal in ways that society did not consider them equal. Thus IN CHRIST we are indeed all equal before God. God does not prefer anyone in those groups, or in any carnal human groupings, before the other but offers us all the full inheritance of all His promises.
_____________________________
Warrior of the Double-Edged Sword
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/21/2005 1:57:41 PM
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neuronstatic
Posts: 906
Joined: 7/14/2005
From: North Carolina!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: oopsmartin
quote:
Therefore I cannot accept the assertion that the husband and the wife are equal when there is no scriptural evidence to support such a position.
Thank you for coming right out and saying that women are not equal with men, or is it only within the marriage in your opinion.
Don't have time to go into it now, but I do not agree that husbands or men are equal with God and Christ.
Will get back when I'm on the puter next.
There are biological differences between male and female that are obvious and not so obvious.
There are physiological differences between male and female that are quite obvious.
There are neurological differences between male and female that can be observed, measured, and demonstrated.
There are emotional differences between male and female that can be observed and demonstrated.
There is no difference between male and female in terms of worth or respect, in the context of marriage or any other part of society.
Never once did I assert the men or husbands are equal with God and Christ. In fact, I stated the exact opposite of that and I was quite clear.
quote:
ORIGINAL: oopsmartin
There are two things to notice here for our discussion. 1) what is the common thread in the comparisons of : Jew vs Greek, slave vs. free, male vs. female? 2) why do some Bible choose to translate huios as “sons” instead of legitimate heirs, descendents, children?
The common thread is that each of those are comparisons with one superior and the other inferior in most cultures.
I see your semantic inclination, however I disagree with your premise. I will not make such an assertion nor will I support it.
In humans, males and females are equal in worth, respect, salvation, and value to society.
In humans, males and females differ in their bodies and the way the view the world and process it.
In marriage, if I did not have respect for my wife, why would I marry her? If a wife did not have respect for her husband, why would she marry him?
In marriage, if my children or my friends disrespect my wife, they are going to see a servant leader open up a can of *self-censored* on them and set the situation straight.
Make no mistake, there is a hierarchy, and there is equality. Why is this so difficult to understand?
In the authority structures of our society, do you presume everyone in authority over you is superior? Good Lord, I am glad I don't think that way!
_____________________________
Click here for an example of God blessing a man with a second chance at marriage in a new wife.
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2005 6:55:51 PM
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oopsmartin
Posts: 1162
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quote:
There are biological differences between male and female that are obvious and not so obvious.
There are physiological differences between male and female that are quite obvious.
There are neurological differences between male and female that can be observed, measured, and demonstrated.
None of that makes males or females not equal. Differences do not equate to inequality. What makes men and women equal is that they are male humans and female humans. The end total adds up to the same although the figures within each quotient are varying and numerous. that is why I disagree with your statement that men and women are not equal, but quite agree that men and women are different. Ever hear of the statement “different but equal” ?
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There are emotional differences between male and female that can be observed and demonstrated.
You are likely meaning that men and women use their emotional abilities differently, but both males and females have the same measure of emotional ability as human beings.
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There is no difference between male and female in terms of worth or respect, in the context of marriage or any other part of society.
Absolutely agree. The problem is that for many, though not all, hierarchalists and patriarchalists it is an intellectual affirmation that does not translate into the social interactions between men and women. IOW it is easy to say they are equal but much more difficult to actually treat them as if they are indeed equal. Intellectual affirmation is usually pretty useless and used more as a patronizing silenser.
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Never once did I assert the men or husbands are equal with God and Christ. In fact, I stated the exact opposite of that and I was quite clear.
Not quite. You made it quite clear that all humans are not equal with God. But then you make the assumption that a husband should in his wifes eyes and actions be treated equally with Christ. The two beliefs don’t go together. Either a husband and wife , as fellow human beings are equal, or they are not.
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Make no mistake, there is a hierarchy, and there is equality. Why is this so difficult to understand?
I understand it all too well. I’ve lived it. I’ve seen the wreckage left behind by these systems of social hierarchy interactions between male and female. The problem is that those who prefer them read them into Scripture, where Scripture does not have them.
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In the authority structures of our society, do you presume everyone in authority over you is superior? Good Lord, I am glad I don't think that way!
Most of the time my “superiors” are there because they have superior skills and knowledge on the subject. Sometimes there are bosses and leaders who have no business being in the office they are in. The very essence of leadership is supposed to be because an individual has walked the path already and is able to guide others to be where he is and support them in their work. So yes, I do hope that those in authority over me are well skilled for the task. It is unfortunate that the positions of leadership are often viewed as rights to make decisions for others, rather than responsibilities one is gifted for to serve others.
< Message edited by oopsmartin -- 9/22/2005 7:08:17 PM >
_____________________________
Warrior of the Double-Edged Sword
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2005 8:02:37 PM
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neuronstatic
Posts: 906
Joined: 7/14/2005
From: North Carolina!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: oopsmartin
Ever hear of the statement “different but equal” ?
When I said "men and women are not equal" it was in the context of marriage. You pulled my statement out of context. So I assert again.
Men and women are equal in worth in the marriage. However, their roles ARE NOT THE SAME and they do NOT share equal authority. That is clear. That is said quite plainly in scripture. The context is a husband and wife are not equal in authority in their marriage. Once again, in the marriage, the husband has a different authority than the wife, and his is the highest authority in the marriage below Christ.
quote:
ORIGINAL: oopsmartin
You are likely meaning that men and women use their emotional abilities differently, but both males and females have the same measure of emotional ability as human beings.
Not quite. There are measurable differences in brain chemisty and function between men and women in regards to the emotional processing centers of the brain. Not inferior in either, just different.
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ORIGINAL: oopsmartin
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Never once did I assert the men or husbands are equal with God and Christ. In fact, I stated the exact opposite of that and I was quite clear.
Not quite. You made it quite clear that all humans are not equal with God. But then you make the assumption that a husband should in his wifes eyes and actions be treated equally with Christ. The two beliefs don’t go together. Either a husband and wife , as fellow human beings are equal, or they are not.
Negative. This is an unfair misinterpretation of what I said. I made it very clear that husbands are not equal to Christ. I did make it clear the the wife submits to the authority of the husband in the marriage. And we all submit to Christ, who is our "husband" as we are the bride. This is not an assertion of the husband being equal to Christ. I simply cannot fathom why you would try to twist that statement any further.
quote:
ORIGINAL: oopsmartin
quote:
Make no mistake, there is a hierarchy, and there is equality. Why is this so difficult to understand?
I understand it all too well. I’ve lived it. I’ve seen the wreckage left behind by these systems of social hierarchy interactions between male and female. The problem is that those who prefer them read them into Scripture, where Scripture does not have them.
Granted their are abuses to be had. However, the scriptures are clear. The wording is simple. There is a hierarchy. If there is no hierarchy between the husband and the wife, then there is no hierarchy between Christ and the church. Because the comparison is drawn in scripture and the words are used to indicate a clear leader, being the husband.
I have seen the wreckage left behind when the wife asserts authority over the husband and when they vie for authority. Because these systems of household management by equal co-partners, attempt to assert the equality of worth of the husband and wife, as the equality of authority between them. This is mixing apples and oranges. I have seen few, that is very few, of such marriages that are not dysfunctional.
And I assert, that the abuses are sin. And I assert that the marriages that are attempting to redefine the srciptures to satisfy a 20th and 21st century western culture, are also in sin.
The husband should never be a tyrant. In fact if he is not the servant leader that he is required to be by the scriptures, then he is in sin.
The wife, required to submit to authority is NEVER to be a doormat. Nor would anyone assert that less authority equates to inferiority. That is simply illogical.
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ORIGINAL: oopsmartin
quote:
In the authority structures of our society, do you presume everyone in authority over you is superior? Good Lord, I am glad I don't think that way!
Most of the time my “superiors” are there because they have superior skills and knowledge on the subject. Sometimes there are bosses and leaders who have no business being in the office they are in. The very essence of leadership is supposed to be because an individual has walked the path already and is able to guide others to be where he is and support them in their work. So yes, I do hope that those in authority over me are well skilled for the task. It is unfortunate that the positions of leadership are often viewed as rights to make decisions for others, rather than responsibilities one is gifted for to serve others.
On the contrary, some leadership positions do have the authority and the rght to make decisions for others. This is called working. I do not always have the authority to choose the specific assignments that I want to work on. The decisions are made for me.
In terms of leadership of teams of people, my boss is superior in his skills. In terms of systems architecture, he defers to me as having the superior skill set.
The essence of leadership is that God put all leaders in their positions. From kings and presidents down to bosses, task leaders, ministry leaders, and even husbands and wives. Yet there is still a hierarchy. There is a hierarchy in heaven. There is a hierarchy on earth of government. There is a hierarchy in the marriage and the home.
_____________________________
Click here for an example of God blessing a man with a second chance at marriage in a new wife.
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2005 8:56:17 PM
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oopsmartin
Posts: 1162
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quote:
When I said "men and women are not equal" it was in the context of marriage. You pulled my statement out of context. So I assert again.
Men and women are equal in worth in the marriage. However, their roles ARE NOT THE SAME and they do NOT share equal authority. That is clear. That is said quite plainly in scripture. The context is a husband and wife are not equal in authority in their marriage. Once again, in the marriage, the husband has a different authority than the wife, and his is the highest authority in the marriage below Christ.
Amazing how much we agree in the details isn’t it. Of course men and women are equal in worth in ALL aspects of life including marriage. Roles being a hard wired sexual agenda outside of physical abilities has never been an issue of holiness, or even morality, or of sin.
Authority in social structures is and always will be a cultural issue. You saying that husband and wife are not equal in authority in the marital relationship would certainly fit into most cultural takes on how marriages are structured throughout the world. It just isn’t addressed in Scripture other than to say that both husband and wife have authority over each other’s body. That would be equal authority.
There is one Bible translation that chooses to translate “kephale” as "authority", but it is an interpretive translation since the word has nothing to do with authority and theire is indeed a word meaning authority, exousia.
The only valid use of authoritative directions from a husband to a wife would be to save her life in some emergency. That falls under the husbands responsibilities to love their wives as their own body nurturing and cherishing her, in a similar way that the Lord gave His very life in order to bring us spiritual life. The comparison is one of dedication, devotion, committment, as no man can expect that he can do the same things that Christ did and does, nor does Scripture expect him to.
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There are measurable differences in brain chemisty and function between men and women in regards to the emotional processing centers of the brain. Not inferior in either, just different.
yes, differences in how emotions are processed not in capacities for emotion.
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Negative. This is an unfair misinterpretation of what I said. I made it very clear that husbands are not equal to Christ. I did make it clear the the wife submits to the authority of the husband in the marriage. And we all submit to Christ, who is our "husband" as we are the bride. This is not an assertion of the husband being equal to Christ. I simply cannot fathom why you would try to twist that statement any further.
I can appreciate that you do not see the conclusion of your statement. This does not make my analysis of the outcome of your belief to be twisting it. Let’s take another look at that statement of yours.
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I think you are saying the husband and wife are equal? Is this the case? Well I would respectfully have to disagree with that given that if you hold the marriage of husband and wife, per Ephesians 5 and 1 Corinthians 7, to be the model, then that implies we are equal to Christ. And I must disagree with that.
Here you say that husband and wife cannot be equal. But your reasoning that husband and wife are not equal is to imply that according to Ephe. 5 the hierarchy compares the husband to Christ. This does a number of illogical things. One, it puts the wifes “equality” to shambles. For if a woman is only equal with a man until she get’s married, at which point she becomes less equal by reason of the mans position in a presummed hierarchy between her and God, then she is not really equal at all even the intellectual equality you grace her with.
I see where you think you are not saying that a husband is not equal to Christ but that it is a ladder of valuations and responsibilities where the wife is on the bottom rung, so this wouldn’t make the husband equal to Christ, just closer to God than the wife since the wife has a go-between who now makes her decisions for her.
It still comes out to my view that from the wife’s viewpoint in a hierarchy, she is to treat the husband as if he were Christ, but the husband does not treat her as if she were Christ. And yet, as a Christian a wife has Christ within her being as much as her husband.
_____________________________
Warrior of the Double-Edged Sword
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2005 8:58:35 PM
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oopsmartin
Posts: 1162
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quote:
Granted their are abuses to be had.
Doing anything God’s ways leave no room for abuses. There are abuses because God’s ways are being misinterpreted into ways that allow abuses.
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The wording is simple. There is a hierarchy. If there is no hierarchy between the husband and the wife, then there is no hierarchy between Christ and the church. Because the comparison is drawn in scripture and the words are used to indicate a clear leader, being the husband.
None of those words are used in Scripture: authority, leader, any sort of hierarchy with one above and the other below. In fact the picture of Christ’s sacrifice is one of God/Christ subduing Himself under our needs to the point of death in order to lift us out of death into the everlasting light of eternal life. This is why Christ taught so much about the greatest being the slave servant and all His actions being ones of service. Nevertheless, Christ did not tell us to be christs to our wives since He alone is sufficient and there is no need of another.
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I have seen the wreckage left behind when the wife asserts authority over the husband and when they vie for authority.
As have I. Marriage was not made to be an exchange of authority, but a blending of two souls to become united as one. Authority structures only unite in the sense of following another’s goals and accomplishing them for the owners. Authority structures are fine for corporations as they benefit the owner as they do the well paid employees. Marriages are not about that.
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Because these systems of household management by equal co-partners, attempt to assert the equality of worth of the husband and wife, as the equality of authority between them. This is mixing apples and oranges. I have seen few, that is very few, of such marriages that are not dysfunctional.
Do you have friends. Do you have a long time buddy that you have known for years. Take a look at that friendship and tell me who is the boss and how one person being the boss, controller, authority in the friendship has made it better than being partners in enjoying your lives together.
Facts are that Christian marriages fail more often than secular marriages. In addition the proponents of hierarchal marriage with husband as boss/leader/authority, primarily Baptists (I’m a Baptist BTW), have the highest divorce rate amongst Christians.
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The husband should never be a tyrant. In fact if he is not the servant leader that he is required to be by the scriptures, then he is in sin.
Absolutely no husband should tyranize his wife. But they do. It’s a fact. But no Scripture commands a husband to lead his wife, servantly or not. Quote me one. :)
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The wife, required to submit to authority is NEVER to be a doormat. Nor would anyone assert that less authority equates to inferiority. That is simply illogical.
There is no Scripture that says a wife is to submit to authority. Quote me one.
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On the contrary, some leadership positions do have the authority and the rght to make decisions for others. This is called working.
Quite correct, in a paid job you and your boss form a contract of various sorts for you to do suchandsuch work and he will pay you suchandsuch for that work. But not in the church. And not in marriage. Quote me a Scripture that says a husband makes decisions for his wife.
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I do not always have the authority to choose the specific assignments that I want to work on. The decisions are made for me.
And do you believe that you have such a right over your wife? Do you give your wife assignments that she has to do because you said so?
_____________________________
Warrior of the Double-Edged Sword
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2005 9:41:54 PM
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Coheir
Posts: 122
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: neuronstatic
The context is a husband and wife are not equal in authority in their marriage. Once again, in the marriage, the husband has a different authority than the wife, and his is the highest authority in the marriage below Christ.
The only place the word "authority" is used in relation to marriage is in the verse that says the husband has authority over his wife's body and the wife has authority over her husband's body. Sounds pretty equal in authority to me. If you can show me where else the word authority is used in marriage, then show me the verse.
quote:
I have seen the wreckage left behind when the wife asserts authority over the husband and when they vie for authority. Because these systems of household management by equal co-partners, attempt to assert the equality of worth of the husband and wife, as the equality of authority between them. This is mixing apples and oranges. I have seen few, that is very few, of such marriages that are not dysfunctional.
Neither spouse should be asserting authority over the other, except in the case based on scripture above. Your observations do not bear out what comprehensive, long-term studies prove - that marriages where spouses bear equal responsibility without hierarchy are much stronger, happier, and long lasting marriages. It is the marriages made in the hierarchical, female subordination mold that have the highest divorce rate. See these comprehensive studies:
http://www.godswordtowomen.org/studies/articles/Preato3.htm
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2005 10:41:26 PM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 1615
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: an ignoble beginning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: oopsmartin
Facts are that Christian marriages fail more often than secular marriages. In addition the proponents of hierarchal marriage with husband as boss/leader/authority, primarily Baptists (I’m a Baptist BTW), have the highest divorce rate amongst Christians.
Proof please? and in my experience with Baptists, the divorces have happened due to spiritual apathy on the part of the men....they can't be bothered to show up to church..they can't be bothered to go beyond being called Baptist.
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2005 11:25:24 PM
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QueenM
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I think the word "submit" throws everyone into a tizzy. It doesn't mean being a "Stepford Wife" without a mind or opinions of your own, or blindly following your husband . One of Websters' definitions is: to commit to the decision or discretion of another. It's simply to be in agreement. If a couple is coming from a place of mutual respect it isn't hard to have simple pro's and con's discussions about decisions within a household and coming to an "agreement" about how to proceed.
The question should be do you trust your husbands ability to do what is best for your family? That doesn't mean that he has the right to jump into things like major purchases or moving or even throwing a dinner party without consulting his wife.
Being a submissive wife IMO simply means that you are respectful, approachable, open-minded, and not a contentious person just for sake of being contentious. It isn't about a "Doing what I say when I say it" kind of attitude.
There are husbands who abuse the word because they are selfish and only looking at half the picture. It isn't about a "Doing what I say when I say it" kind of attitude. It's about a husband who honors and respects his wife and makes decisions with her feelings and perspective in mind.
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2005 11:34:51 PM
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neuronstatic
Posts: 906
Joined: 7/14/2005
From: North Carolina!
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oopsmartin and others. I am tired of beating my head against the wall. You all can play word games and apply social liberalism to the scriptures all you want.
Ephesian 5:22-24 (NASB)
22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Now all. I have heard the femi-nazi translations that attempt to retranslate all the Greek to other words to basically change the meaning of this passage. However each time they do so, the pull these few verses completely out of the context of the rest of Ephesians, this chapter, and the particular context of this part of the chapter.
When they do this, they find alternate meanings for "submit" and "head". And yes, I have read their books. I know the words they use to replace the accepted translations. Even with their words they still have to redefine the context of this block to attain their meaning.
Now. There is a distinct comparison between Christ and the church and the husband and the wife. When you attempt to belittle the position of the husband, you belittle the position of Christ.
Now who is willing to stand up and say that these verses tell you that the husband is not in authority over the wife and that Christ is not in authority over the church.
And for what its worth, I will be following this guideline, and the ones to follow and the ones in the rest of scripture for a husband. I will be a godly husband, a servant leader in the home. I will love my wife as Christ loved the church and give myself up for her. Now if this sounds so terrible, any woman who thinks this is wrong of me, please post. It will be interesting to see what it is you really want.
Yes this post is blunt. I tire of the attempts to rehash the same argument over and over. I am done. Thanks all.
_____________________________
Click here for an example of God blessing a man with a second chance at marriage in a new wife.
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2005 11:55:22 PM
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TammyIsBlessed
Posts: 1660
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quote:
ORIGINAL: oopsmartin
Facts are that Christian marriages fail more often than secular marriages. In addition the proponents of hierarchal marriage with husband as boss/leader/authority, primarily Baptists (I’m a Baptist BTW), have the highest divorce rate amongst Christians.
Where is the proof of this?
I know of very few divorced people in my family and church. Our church has over 500 people and our families have over 500 people as well (we're Mennonite!  ) We're talking maybe 10 couples. That's a far cry from the supposed 40 - 50% divorce rate.
And according to this site being "religious" decreases your chances of divorce by 14%.
_____________________________
I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do. Helen Keller
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2005 12:33:36 AM
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oopsmartin
Posts: 1162
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quote:
ORIGINAL: W.O.F.
quote:
ORIGINAL: oopsmartin
Facts are that Christian marriages fail more often than secular marriages. In addition the proponents of hierarchal marriage with husband as boss/leader/authority, primarily Baptists (I’m a Baptist BTW), have the highest divorce rate amongst Christians.
Proof please? and in my experience with Baptists, the divorces have happened due to spiritual apathy on the part of the men....they can't be bothered to show up to church..they can't be bothered to go beyond being called Baptist.
Partial quote:
"Empirical Data in Support of Egalitarian Marriages and A Fresh Perspective on Submission and Authority
by DENNIS J. PREATO
There is a serious problem with the institution of marriage in the USA. Many marriages, and particularly Christian marriages, don't seem to last. They fall short of God’s ideal that marriage should be permanent as long as the two partners live. A 2001 national study conducted by Barna Research Group highlights this reality. The chart below summarizes divorce rates among various Christian church denominations.[1] Barna says that 33 percent of born again adult Christians have experienced a divorce. That statistic is comparable to non-born again adults. Also "more than 90% of the born again adults who have been divorced experienced that divorce after they accepted Christ, not before."[2]
According to Barna, these results raise "questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families." It challenges "the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriage."[3] Dallas therapist Dr. Roy Austin agrees with Barna's findings. He states that fundamentalist or evangelical couples base their marriages on "very irrational and unrealistic principles," and he adds that problems occur when some men, as head of the household, become "cruel dictators" who "expect their wives to become servants."[4]
the rest of the article is here:
http://www.godswordtowomen.org/studies/articles/Preato3.htm
_____________________________
Warrior of the Double-Edged Sword
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2005 12:40:00 AM
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oopsmartin
Posts: 1162
Status: offline
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quote:
oopsmartin and others. I am tired of beating my head against the wall. You all can play word games and apply social liberalism to the scriptures all you want.
I will be back to address a few things, but first I'd like to address this statement.
I can assure you that I am not playing word games. These issues are serious in my estimation. In my 60+ years on this earth I have seen a ton of devastation in the marital arena. It tears at my soul to see this.
No one is calling you names or accusing you of twisting Scripture or any such nonsense. Please give everyone the benefit of acknowledging that we are brethren in Christ and consider the possibility that we are just as serious and maybe even more so about wanting only God's truth in this subject.
More later.
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Warrior of the Double-Edged Sword
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2005 5:57:38 AM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 830
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: offline
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OK all.... I am moved to post - I think sometimes we are missing the point....
1st of all - I am female
2nd of all - I believe in that hiearchical structure and think it is a good thing.
NOW BEFORE you write me off as being mentally-challenged or "brainwashed" - let me explain my position....
Some history
I was married to a "tyrant". He did not treat me well, and I WAS a doormat, but I did my best to be a godly wife to him while he chose to be married to me. He abandoned me and children for another (of several) and since then, I have been the head of my household and family.
SO.... knowing this several of you would have cause to wonder: "WHY in the WORLD would she want to still have her DFH to believe that he was head over her????!!!"
Why?
Because it is right...
Now let me explain....
I did not enjoy playing the doormat and have no desire to play that role again. I know that God's structure for the marriage is good ONLY if the husband is willing to sacrifice himself LIKE CHRIST gave himself up for the church. This is a TALL order for most men, and they may not want to be placed in this position - in fact, most are not like they should be, BUT it does NOT make it a wrong premise.
In the future, I sincerely long for my DFH to love me the way that Christ loves the church... Not because I think Christ's love for the church is tyrranical, but simply because I know HOW MUCH he would love me. If my DFH loves me in that way - it makes me think of John 3:16. If my husband could even come close to that amount of love and sacrifice, my submission to him would not be misplaced.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" John 3:16 NKJV
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These feet are made for swimming (3 inches already)....
About to hatch (4 weeks to go - or less.... less would be ok)
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2005 6:25:11 AM
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write2witness
Posts: 52
Joined: 6/29/2005
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hunterjumper777
In the future, I sincerely long for my DFH to love me the way that Christ loves the church... Not because I think Christ's love for the church is tyrranical, but simply because I know HOW MUCH he would love me. If my DFH loves me in that way - it makes me think of John 3:16. If my husband could even come close to that amount of love and sacrifice, my submission to him would not be misplaced.
Praise God for you, sister! That kind of faith and devotion to the Lord and His Word is indeed rare. May you bless all women with your walk, and may the Lord bless you with a husband as you have asked. In the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Amen.
Only one small piece of advice: it is a tall order for most men, but unfortunately, all men are human, so you might have to allow him some imperfections. :)
- w2w
< Message edited by write2witness -- 9/23/2005 6:26:29 AM >
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I lay down and slept; I awoke, for the Lord sustained me. (Psalm 3:5)
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2005 11:28:53 AM
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floydette
Posts: 1080
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: neuronstatic
Men and women are equal in worth in the marriage. However, their roles ARE NOT THE SAME and they do NOT share equal authority.
They are not the same authority, just like you and I don't necessarily carry the same authority. I have authority, in the spirit, over things that concern my husband. I don't have authority over those same things with you or Martin. I am not one with you all. I am one with my husband. I can rebuke things off him, that it seems no one else can, because he is MY husband. The same goes with him. He can pray things off me that no one else may be able to do, because he is one with me.
This authority that we have within marriage is not a "power-over" authority. It is submitting to Jesus, and receiving His instructions on this authority.
quote:
I have seen the wreckage left behind when the wife asserts authority over the husband and when they vie for authority.
This is an example of authority that is mis-used and is used to power-over someone.
quote:
The very essence of leadership is supposed to be because an individual has walked the path already and is able to guide others to be where he is and support them in their work.
Martin,
Oh my, that is a great definition...
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2005 11:33:42 AM
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floydette
Posts: 1080
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: neuronstatic
Now all. I have heard the femi-nazi translations ...
Oh, I think that Rush would be very disappointed in such a use of this word.....
:)
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2005 12:47:10 PM
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p31woman
Posts: 650
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas, and now South Dakota
Status: online
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oops and coheir:
Thanks for the new link (godswordtowomen)-- hadn't seen that site before.
_____________________________
So don't let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a Jewish festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat. These are a shadow of things that are coming, but the body is of the Messiah. Colossians 2:16-17
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2005 11:10:15 PM
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oopsmartin
Posts: 1162
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: write2witness
quote:
ORIGINAL: hunterjumper777
In the future, I sincerely long for my DFH to love me the way that Christ loves the church... Not because I think Christ's love for the church is tyrranical, but simply because I know HOW MUCH he would love me. If my DFH loves me in that way - it makes me think of John 3:16. If my husband could even come close to that amount of love and sacrifice, my submission to him would not be misplaced.
Praise God for you, sister! That kind of faith and devotion to the Lord and His Word is indeed rare. May you bless all women with your walk, and may the Lord bless you with a husband as you have asked. In the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Amen.
Only one small piece of advice: it is a tall order for most men, but unfortunately, all men are human, so you might have to allow him some imperfections. :)
- w2w
This is very VERY good thinking. However, something is missed when we assume that ONLY men can love sacrificially in a marriage. Facts are that it is usually the woman that loves sacrificially. But the point is that in Ephesians Paul just got finished telling us ALL that ALL Christians are to love sacrificially in the same John 3:16 way that Christ gave His life for us.
1Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. 2And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.
1THEREFORE BE imitators of God [copy Him and follow His example], as well-beloved children [imitate their father].
2And walk in love, [esteeming and delighting in one another] as Christ loved us and gave Himself up for us, a slain offering and sacrifice to God [for you, so that it became] a sweet fragrance.
_____________________________
Warrior of the Double-Edged Sword
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2005 11:48:46 PM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 830
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
This is very VERY good thinking. However, something is missed when we assume that ONLY men can love sacrificially in a marriage. Facts are that it is usually the woman that loves sacrificially. But the point is that in Ephesians Paul just got finished telling us ALL that ALL Christians are to love sacrificially in the same John 3:16 way that Christ gave His life for us.
I did not say that only men can love sacrificially, but it is EASIER for women to love that way... That is why men are commanded to love their wives and women are commanded to respect their husbands. The point being that both are approaching the throne of God to become one - each in their respective role, allowing the one to complement and complete the other. If we meet at the throne of grace, as husband and wife, that is where we truly become one flesh. It is NOT a purely physical thing, but a SPIRITUAL thing - a GOD thing. Lets allow God to determine how we are to act towards each other - and allow HIM to write His mysteries on our hearts. That is all I have to say in the matter.
_____________________________
These feet are made for swimming (3 inches already)....
About to hatch (4 weeks to go - or less.... less would be ok)
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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