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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 4/24/2008 10:45:51 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
we have a few manuscripts much earlier (centuries) than the bible that indicate violent, harshly dominating (and even murder) nuances, and we have a few manuscripts from the early second century where the meaning has clearly shifted to being much more synonymous with are English definition of authority. Because this word was infrequently used we very little else to go on in trying to understand what was meant by this word in the first century. Much of the debate has centered around guesses about when the shift between its earlier understanding and it later understanding took place i.e. how was it understood in the first century, and while there is reason to believe that it did carry a stronger sense in the first century, the evidence is, as Lycea pointed out, very far from conclusive. It it because of the limited information that we have about how this word was used in the first century that has contributed to the difficulties in translating this verse;
The fact is that no one knows for sure what the "correct" meaning of this word is, which is why both men and women scholars are all over the map on this one
I can confirm that Benelchi is right on the problems involved in translating this goofy word. It's fiendishly difficult. It's entirely possible that we may never know exactly how to translate it.
Perhaps the question to ask isn't "what does this word mean", but rather "why would the writer have intentionally chosen a rather odd word? What's he really getting at?
Absolutely!
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 10:57:41 AM
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Beck34
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It all depends on what your interpretation of the whole Bible is. There are places in the Bible where women played prominent roles, but at the same time, God tells us that we are to be a "help-mate" to our husbands and the men around us. It is not clear cut. Nothing is ever clearly in black and white. It is the grey areas that I am concerned with because I do not want to cross a line into sin.
_____________________________
What do you expect, It's Beck!
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 4/29/2008 2:29:57 PM
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notmycity
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beck34
It all depends on what your interpretation of the whole Bible is. There are places in the Bible where women played prominent roles, but at the same time, God tells us that we are to be a "help-mate" to our husbands and the men around us. It is not clear cut. Nothing is ever clearly in black and white. It is the grey areas that I am concerned with because I do not want to cross a line into sin.
You spoke of bias, yet you provided no details...
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 4/29/2008 4:00:02 PM
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sunofone
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I think the bible is a lot clearer on this issue then even I like to accept.When Paul speaks about Womens role in the church he goes at it from an overall biblical view.
He attacks the notion that Women should lead, by way of their God ordained position.He states that they were made after the man.This strikes me as Paul equating the rites of birth order,the same as creation order.Which is to say that the firstborn male has it's rites,so then Men have rites over the Woman.
He also clearly draws a line of hierarchy,God,Jesus,Man,Woman.We don't easily accept this as our customs have evolved and make Paul's message seem antiquated.
Judging squarely by scriptural record it is more clear then fuzzy,that there is no scriptural record of allowance for Women to be placed in positions of authority over Men as it relates to church.
Going strictly by scriptural record it is strongly stated that Women submit themselves to their Husbands,and that Men lead and provide covering for their Wives.
This outlined role extends itself beyond the marriage and directly governs Women's role in the church,just as how a man governs his affairs at home dictate his ability to take on roles of leadership in the church.
This is the clear scriptural record and witness.
We could have a completely different discussion about whether we are bound to follow this scriptural witness or not.
< Message edited by sunofone -- 4/29/2008 4:07:22 PM >
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 4/29/2008 4:29:52 PM
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notmycity
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
He also clearly draws a line of hierarchy,God,Jesus,Man,Woman.We don't easily accept this as our customs have evolved and make Paul's message seem antiquated.
It isn’t “Paul’s message”.
2 Pet 1:19-21
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 4/30/2008 1:11:39 AM
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Beck34
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Man, the arguements over this thing are dizzing. I am just apparently not spirtuall equiped to handle all of this. I nevertried to impy biasby my statement. I am just trying to understand ths, and all of this information is hard for me to process.
_____________________________
What do you expect, It's Beck!
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 4/30/2008 7:18:10 AM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beck34
Man, the arguements over this thing are dizzing. I am just apparently not spirtuall equiped to handle all of this. I nevertried to impy biasby my statement. I am just trying to understand ths, and all of this information is hard for me to process.
Hey Beck I appreciate where you are coming from.Not knowing you personally and how far you are in your walk with God and your basic understanding of his word.It's hard for me to provide suitable counsel.
In my flesh I want to yell out whats so hard or complex here.Yet even in my own personal experience I find myself holding thoughts and opinions on this subject that require spiritual yoga to square up with what the whole of scripture teach.
From a very plain laymans view,for that is all I am.I look for what is Gods attitude concerning Man and Women.I see first that it is one of love and devotion.
God is not a God of chaos or fly by the seat of his pants,but a God of order and I would say logic and reasoning but I realize that his logic and reasoning is much higher than mine.
Basically what I'm driving at,is that God has left a pretty strong record of how he wants and expects us to interact with one another.
Starting early on in creation he first created a man,and developed a bond and close relationship with that man.He gave him dominion over the things in the earth and a responsibility manage all of it.
Then God did something that an ignorant mind might say was an afterthought,he decided as he pondered that this man needed help.He didn't offer man another man for fellowship,and to offer an helpful hand.
He made him a help meet suitable to help him in ways that no other creature could,a Woman.This Woman was a thirst quenching drink a water for Adam and he loved her and blessed God for having provided her.
Paul addresses this order of Gods creation to have profound implications.It was not an afterthought but purposeful,God made the Man first,then the Women.
The Women in turn gets deceived by the serpent and is then instrumental in involving her husband who ultimately decides to join in with his helpmate in disobeying God bringing sin into the world.
When God accesses The damage he holds each person individually accountable,and assigns individual concequences as well as shared concequences on the Man and the Women.
Now Paul addresses what happened here and is firm at distinguishing Eves deception,stating firmly that it was she not Adam who was deceived.This distinction for me assigns a level of blame if you will.
The fact that she was deceived not Adam was indeed an indictment on her ability or inability to resist the serpents deception.
When God assigns personal concequences to Eve he sys your desire shall be to your husband,and he shall RULE over you.
From this point forward we see a hierarchy assigned and the Women is placed at the end of that order.There are clearly defined roles established as the woman is tasked with subservience desire for the man and a duty to bear children with sorrow.
The has the responsibility of providing for the Woman and eventual family through intense labor.It appears both were reassigned their original duties with a newfound system of subservience and toil.
Fast forward or walk slowly throughout all of the scripture and you will find Men holding position of leadership and authority throughout the church,both Old and New.
We are then left with a record stated clearly or with the least bit of ambiguity, that at the very least lends itself to Women remaining willfully subservient to their husbands,and not take on roles that usurp the mans authority.
Paul is pretty clear that he does not permit a Woman to teach or usurp authority specifically over the Man.
I realize that we can wrestle over the word authentin,which gives us a gray area or wiggle room,however there to me seems to be a clear record that would preclude a Woman of assuming a role whether in the home or specifically in the church that assigns her role in teaching and having authority over the Man.
I think the record is pretty clear and straight forward on this.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 4/30/2008 9:49:01 AM
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GroupW
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As far as Genesis goes, the placing of the man in the position of ruler over the woman is a part of the curse - it's a statement about what will but but not what should be. I'm of the opinion that we can aspire to better things here.
As far as leadership in the home, opinions on that too may differ. It's possible to take the other side of that argument without putting the scriptures through torture.
Beck-
There are a number of books I can recommend that cover this issue from both sides if you're curious. This is a great thread to discuss the issues, but maybe not so good a thread for exploring them personally (other than just reading some of the better posts.)
I'll try to get some names & titles for you. On the complementarian side, you probably won't find any stronger advocates that Piper & Grudem. On the egalitarian side, I think you have to be a bit more careful who you read but there are some very excellent resources there as well. (Will send some names when I remember them.)
I've found that it's best to read both sides of an issue equally and make your own judgement after you've understood both sides.
BT
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 4/30/2008 10:01:12 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
Fast forward or walk slowly throughout all of the scripture and you will find Men holding position of leadership and authority throughout the church,both Old and New.
One of the difficulties with the view you have presented is that both men and women have had positions of authority both in the Old Testiment and in the New. In the OT there is Debra (the judge), and in the NT we have Phoebe, Prisca, Junia, etc...
quote:
We are then left with a record stated clearly or with the least bit of ambiguity, that at the very least lends itself to Women remaining willfully subservient to their husbands,and not take on roles that usurp the mans authority.
Paul is pretty clear that he does not permit a Woman to teach or usurp authority specifically over the Man.
While I do believe the bible clearly teaches there is a difference in the roles of men and women, there is no clear teaching that a woman can never have authority over a man unless you choose to interpret the 1 Ti. 2 passage that way, and as many have pointed out there are significant difficulties to interpreting 'authentien' in that way.
quote:
I realize that we can wrestle over the word authentin,which gives us a gray area or wiggle room,however there to me seems to be a clear record that would preclude a Woman of assuming a role whether in the home or specifically in the church that assigns her role in teaching and having authority over the Man.
I think the record is pretty clear and straight forward on this.
While I would agree that the record is very clear that men and women's roles differ, it is very far from clear that a woman can never have authority over a man. This view is entirely based on a single verse that does not clearly teach this.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 4/30/2008 2:23:47 PM
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notmycity
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
While I would agree that the record is very clear that men and women's roles differ, it is very far from clear that a woman can never have authority over a man. This view is entirely based on a single verse that does not clearly teach this.
Please note the OP title.
I report to a woman and have had several women as “bosses” over the years.
As for a woman’s role in the church, Scripture is impeccably clear.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 4/30/2008 3:04:12 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
As for a woman’s role in the church, Scripture is impeccably clear.
Benelchi and I actually stand on fairly opposite sides on this but we both tend to agree that the Bible is not always as clear on this as either complementarians or egalitarians might think.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 4/30/2008 3:06:23 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1200
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
As for a woman’s role in the church, Scripture is impeccably clear.
Benelchi and I actually stand on fairly opposite sides on this but we both tend to agree that the Bible is not always as clear on this as either complementarians or egalitarians might think.
Please provide the Scripture that isn’t “clear” to you. We’ll go from there.
Thanks...
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 4/30/2008 3:10:44 PM
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GroupW
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It's pretty much all been posted here.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 4/30/2008 3:12:00 PM
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notmycity
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
It's pretty much all been posted here.
So you won't share any specifics?
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 4/30/2008 3:14:30 PM
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GroupW
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Sorry. My reply was a bit too short. If you search on what I've posted here in this thread it's all pretty much there. Figured it would just save time to direct you to earlier posts. I just can't think of anything new that isn't back there somewhere.
Most definitely not intended to put you off. Sorry 'bout that.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 8:15:07 AM
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Beck34
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I have read the bible in my youth, but I am really just beginning to study the bible. I have't had my life recommitted to God for long, and I am finding all of this information a bit overwelming, but I am taking what is said here and studying it further. The only way for me to know for sure is to look at both sides of the arguement through study. Thanks to all of you for the valuable informaton, and I will use all of it to study the scripture more carefully in this regaurd.
_____________________________
What do you expect, It's Beck!
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 9:48:39 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
The only way for me to know for sure is to look at both sides of the argument through study.
I absolutely agree with this!
A great resource that looks at all sides of this issue is "Women in Ministry: four views". In each section of this book an one of the four authors presents an argument for his/her position and each argument is followed by a separate rebuttal from the remaining three authors. The viewpoints presented range from completely "Traditional" to completely "Egalitarian"
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 9:55:35 AM
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GroupW
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A good resource. Good suggestion.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 4:25:34 PM
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pstrdebi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: joint heir
In response to Bzirk's post....
Then next logical question would be then what is authority? and prophet..
Find any prophet in the Bible and you will see that they have authority...they are speaking the very words of God...
unless men are just not supposed to listen to a prophet of God who happens to be female...
Amen!
Jack Hayford from Church on the Way says this... "It is puzzling why the place of women in ministry is contested by some in the church. Women had an equal place in the Upper Room, awaiting the Holy Spirit's coming and the birth of the church (Acts 1:14). Then Peter's prophetic sermon at Pentecost affirmed the Old Testement promise (Joel 2:28) was now to be realized; "your daughters" and "maidservants" would now share fully and equally with men in realizing the anointing, fullness and ministry of the Holy Spirit, making them effective in witness and service for the spread of the gospel."
"... all flesh..." in Joel 2:28 reflects that the outouring of the Holy Spirit and the ministries done through His power will be accomplished without regard to gender, age or class.
I guess I would ask this question: Was the Word written for man (men) alone? If so... then women, nothing in it pertains to you. If not... then you will find scripture after scripture directing you to go and preach the good news!
I am a pastor. I am under my senior pastor's (also my husband) covering. Before taking this step in my life, I studied long and hard... not only to be a pastor... but to know that I was right before God.
Blessings...
Pastor Debi
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 6:49:09 PM
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pstrdebi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
Now Paul addresses what happened here and is firm at distinguishing Eves deception,stating firmly that it was she not Adam who was deceived.This distinction for me assigns a level of blame if you will.
The fact that she was deceived not Adam was indeed an indictment on her ability or inability to resist the serpents deception.
Oh goodness...
'deceive'... to mislead, to trick, to falsely persuade others. Eve was tricked... misled. Whereas Adam made a concious choice... and as the spiritual leader, should have been 1. looking out for her... and 2. could have said no.
Silly... I guess so... but so is trying to lay blame (and letting that blame carry on to every generation of women)when they both were at fault.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
Paul is pretty clear that he does not permit a Woman to teach or usurp authority specifically over the Man.
I realize that we can wrestle over the word authentin,which gives us a gray area or wiggle room,however there to me seems to be a clear record that would preclude a Woman of assuming a role whether in the home or specifically in the church that assigns her role in teaching and having authority over the Man.
I think the record is pretty clear and straight forward on this.
The Bible teaches that God is not a respecter of persons, and He will use any and all who will yield to Him, regardless of race, age, or sex. Galatians 3:28 - "...neither male nor female...for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Moses said in Numbers 11:29, "Would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put His spirit upon them!"
The need of the hour is for more laborers. It is a trick of the enemy to try to down rate thousands of our faithful laborers just because they were born females.
The Bible declares that women will prophesy: Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17-18, 1 Cor. 11:5
Both the Hebrew (Nabi or Nebrah), and Greek (Proph) used for prophetess means (female preacher). (See Young's Concordance, Pg. 780.) The word "Prophet" means a public expounder.
"If the noun nabi [ayib"n], "prophet (or prophetess), is the original form, then the suggestion of W. F. Albright that the Akkadian verb nabu, "to call, " is helpful in suggesting that the passive meaning may well be "one who is called [by God]." *Baker
The word "Prophesy" means to speak forth, or flow forth. The Bible says in 1 Cor. 14:3, "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto MEN to edification, and exhortation and comfort."
The word prophesy in the dictionary means "to speak under divine inspiration...to teach religious matters... to preach."
Therefore we learn from the original translation, from the Bible interpretation, and from the dictionary, that to prophesy means more than to tell the future, but it is to speak publicly about the past, present, or future. It is to preach under the anointing of the Holy Spirit.
The Old and New Testament prophets and prophetesses were preachers, exhorters of God's Word.
Even if the words prophet and preacher could be separated, how could anyone prophesy to bring exhortation, comfort and edification to the church, if she were forbidden to speak in church and was to keep silent?
Would God inspire and anoint someone to do something that was wrong and sinful??? 
Blessings...
Pastor Debi
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 7:01:20 PM
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sunofone
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Pastor Debbie I think your take on what happened in the garden does not line up with scripture.I don't see a biblical example of your proposition,furthermore authority,teaching, and leadership of Women over Men is at question here,not Womens ability to speak in an assembly.
As far as I can see from the total biblical record, Women are not authorized to teach or hold a position of authority over a Man as it concerns the assembly.
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