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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/6/2008 12:39:41 PM
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notmycity
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quote:
ORIGINAL: suzanned
To say that all Scripture can be read at face value without understanding the intention of the author, .......... is limiting at best.
........................
There is no scripture that states the role of elder or overseer must be male....
Who is “the author” of Scripture?
Regarding an overseer being male, what does it mean to be “the husband of one wife”?
Did the word “husband” also mean something different according to you 2000 years ago?
Please explain.
Thank you.
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<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/6/2008 12:44:29 PM
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suzanned
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JEGUINN
"There is no scripture that states the role of elder or overseer must be male."quote:
I Timothy 3 - "If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife"
Doesn't that, taken at face value, even in Greek, indicate that they are male? Deacons, yes, i understand the desire for discussion, debate, etc., but isn't is clear that the head leaders, elders, overseers are male?
The translation from Greek anyone is gender inclusive. There are no other pronouns in the Greek sentance. There is no distinction between the masculine and feminine. so the answer is no
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/6/2008 1:41:49 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1237
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quote:
ORIGINAL: suzanned
The translation from Greek anyone is gender inclusive. There are no other pronouns in the Greek sentance. There is no distinction between the masculine and feminine. so the answer is no
What do the Greek words “aner (an-ayr')” and “gune (goo-nay')” mean please?
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/6/2008 2:11:26 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1129
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Asotos
As I said before extra attention should be taken that he doesn't mention anything about the wife of bishop. The wife of a bishop is less important than of deacon ? Another thing that needs to be taken attention here is that for the Bishop he is uses Singular not Plural and from the context is obvious we speak for male bishops. For the Deacon says "8 Deacons in like manner must be grave ....", why plural and not singular again. The answer comes in the 11, Deacons as I said before refers to both man and women, in 11 he clarifies that explicitly.
First, you are making an argument from silence as it refers to the wives of bishops. Whether a bishop's wife is more imortant than a deacon's wife is arguable, and also not the point. The singlular usage with bishop vs. the plural use of deacon could mean nothing more than each local congregation should have one bishop and several deacons. Also, Paul was writing to Timothy, a singluar person and a bishop/overseer - when discussing deacons he is speaking of a group. There is no problem here.
The only way verse 11 clarifies anything is if one accepts your logic in the prior verses which, as I have pointed out, do not bear you out.
quote:
We all are deacons of Christ , Paul uses that term for himself as well, however, in Romans 16:11 is obvious he speaks she is Deacon of the Church that means she has the ministry of Deacon. IF Paul wanted to say that she offers any kind of service he wouldn't have use the nun Deacon but the verb "diakwnw"
The only problem here is that Paul is referring to her as a servant which, by definition, gives service. Paul referred to what she was, not what she did. Now, since there is not anyplace else in scripture used to describe women as holding the office of deacon (and the language in I Timothy clearly excludes them), there is no reason to think she held an office.
The part I put in bold is exactly how Paul used the term.
quote:
Paul letter is obvious to everyone of those days and especially to Timothy who was his helper and companion.
And is obvious to everyone today about the meaning when he reads it without presuppositions
Yes, it is quite obvious. That is why there is no mention of a woman holding any office of the church in scripture. That is why the women called a deaconess did not hold office, but helped with annointing and baptisms of other women. The only presuppostion here is that the text means what it says on its face and one does not need to engage in symantic acrobatics to make it make sense plainly.
quote:
In Early church there where no scripture in the way we know it today, the today Scripture is a result of the "Council of Carthage", the people that defined what we should read and what we should accept as canonical books and God inspired, those are the same people that say, that in the Church where Women deacons.
This could not be more wrong. The books of the New Testament were known to be scripture before the CoC, Peter even refers to Paul's writing as scripture. And, not everyone accepted the idea of women deacons, especially those that held office or the practice would have been common, which it was not.
Now you are doing nothing more than trying to redefine suggestions and the opinions of a few to be hard evidence and fact.
_____________________________
I'm baaaack!
Now, where was that Benny Hinn thread?
Numbah One OG Thread Killa
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/7/2008 10:27:44 AM
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suzanned
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: suzanned
The translation from Greek anyone is gender inclusive. There are no other pronouns in the Greek sentance. There is no distinction between the masculine and feminine. so the answer is no
What do the Greek words “aner (an-ayr')” and “gune (goo-nay')” mean please?
I dont know what you are driving at since I stated the verse begins if anyone....gender neutral.... and the "he" following this in sentance is implied in the Greek.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/7/2008 10:36:19 AM
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suzanned
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
quote:
ORIGINAL: Asotos
As I said before extra attention should be taken that he doesn't mention anything about the wife of bishop. The wife of a bishop is less important than of deacon ? Another thing that needs to be taken attention here is that for the Bishop he is uses Singular not Plural and from the context is obvious we speak for male bishops. For the Deacon says "8 Deacons in like manner must be grave ....", why plural and not singular again. The answer comes in the 11, Deacons as I said before refers to both man and women, in 11 he clarifies that explicitly.
First, you are making an argument from silence as it refers to the wives of bishops. Whether a bishop's wife is more imortant than a deacon's wife is arguable, and also not the point. The singlular usage with bishop vs. the plural use of deacon could mean nothing more than each local congregation should have one bishop and several deacons. Also, Paul was writing to Timothy, a singluar person and a bishop/overseer - when discussing deacons he is speaking of a group. There is no problem here.
The only way verse 11 clarifies anything is if one accepts your logic in the prior verses which, as I have pointed out, do not bear you out.
quote:
We all are deacons of Christ , Paul uses that term for himself as well, however, in Romans 16:11 is obvious he speaks she is Deacon of the Church that means she has the ministry of Deacon. IF Paul wanted to say that she offers any kind of service he wouldn't have use the nun Deacon but the verb "diakwnw"
The only problem here is that Paul is referring to her as a servant which, by definition, gives service. Paul referred to what she was, not what she did. Now, since there is not anyplace else in scripture used to describe women as holding the office of deacon (and the language in I Timothy clearly excludes them), there is no reason to think she held an office.
The part I put in bold is exactly how Paul used the term.
quote:
Paul letter is obvious to everyone of those days and especially to Timothy who was his helper and companion.
And is obvious to everyone today about the meaning when he reads it without presuppositions
Yes, it is quite obvious. That is why there is no mention of a woman holding any office of the church in scripture. That is why the women called a deaconess did not hold office, but helped with annointing and baptisms of other women. The only presuppostion here is that the text means what it says on its face and one does not need to engage in symantic acrobatics to make it make sense plainly.
quote:
In Early church there where no scripture in the way we know it today, the today Scripture is a result of the "Council of Carthage", the people that defined what we should read and what we should accept as canonical books and God inspired, those are the same people that say, that in the Church where Women deacons.
This could not be more wrong. The books of the New Testament were known to be scripture before the CoC, Peter even refers to Paul's writing as scripture. And, not everyone accepted the idea of women deacons, especially those that held office or the practice would have been common, which it was not.
Now you are doing nothing more than trying to redefine suggestions and the opinions of a few to be hard evidence and fact.
This was not directed at me, but I do have some issues with your response. Phoebe was not called a deaconess. There was no such word. She was called a servant, the very same word that Paul used for himself in ministry as deacon or minister of the Word. Minister and deacon were interchangable in the NT. She was also called a porstatis, which would translate to servant-leader.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/7/2008 11:02:11 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1129
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quote:
ORIGINAL: suzanned
I dont know what you are driving at since I stated the verse begins if anyone....gender neutral.... and the "he" following this in sentance is implied in the Greek.
The "anyone" is understood by the gender specific langusge which limits it to males. It does not matter whether you try to change the meaning in the beginning, middle, or end of the passage. You have gender specific language throughout.
quote:
This was not directed at me, but I do have some issues with your response. Phoebe was not called a deaconess. There was no such word. She was called a servant, the very same word that Paul used for himself in ministry as deacon or minister of the Word. Minister and deacon were interchangable in the NT. She was also called a porstatis, which would translate to servant-leader.
I know she was not referred to as a deaconess. I have been saying there was no such word. This has been my point on her the entire time. She was referred to as a servant - nothing more, nothing less. Also, trying to say that since used a word to describe her that he also used for himself is no argument in favor of your point at all since 1) there is a very general usage for this word (and Paul very rarely "pulled rank" due to his position), 2) there is no evidence at all that Paul ever held the office of deacon, 3) even if you were to stretch it to his apostolic calling, Apostle was not an office of the NT church, 4) many times the word translated "servant" should be translated "slave" depending on the translation.
Also, your translation of prostatis is suspect. You leave out the part of the definition that says it also means a patroness, or supporter via finances. Given this is the only time this is used in the NT this way, there is no evidence of any woman holding the office of deacon in the NT, and there were many women who financially supported Paul's ministry, the context favors (if not outright demands) the meaning you were careful to omit.
_____________________________
I'm baaaack!
Now, where was that Benny Hinn thread?
Numbah One OG Thread Killa
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/8/2008 4:33:30 AM
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BibleBased
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When i joined this site certain people tried to 'recruit' me to the daily arguement on divorce - another NON STOP thread. How many of these are there? I do have strong views/ opinions on divorce and church leadership - but i have equally strong views on Satans POWER.
Satan is laughing his head off, at Christians argueing with Christians and all the time and effort wasted on these topics. Oh yes, of course, i've remembered Evolution v Creation.
Question: Do you believe your Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ wants/ needs you to contribute to this NON STOP thread today? Or is the WORK he called you out of satan's world to do something different? Love & God bless, BibleBased.
Ps. If any of those people from the Non Stop divorce thread are reading this - your personal messages and e mails made me feel that i couldn't visit this site for quite some time. I let my fellow believers down and acted in a foolish way. Stop dividing believers and START looking to unite and help people.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/8/2008 7:25:24 AM
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suzanned
Posts: 242
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
quote:
ORIGINAL: suzanned
I dont know what you are driving at since I stated the verse begins if anyone....gender neutral.... and the "he" following this in sentance is implied in the Greek.
The "anyone" is understood by the gender specific langusge which limits it to males. It does not matter whether you try to change the meaning in the beginning, middle, or end of the passage. You have gender specific language throughout.
quote:
This was not directed at me, but I do have some issues with your response. Phoebe was not called a deaconess. There was no such word. She was called a servant, the very same word that Paul used for himself in ministry as deacon or minister of the Word. Minister and deacon were interchangable in the NT. She was also called a porstatis, which would translate to servant-leader.
I know she was not referred to as a deaconess. I have been saying there was no such word. This has been my point on her the entire time. She was referred to as a servant - nothing more, nothing less. Also, trying to say that since used a word to describe her that he also used for himself is no argument in favor of your point at all since 1) there is a very general usage for this word (and Paul very rarely "pulled rank" due to his position), 2) there is no evidence at all that Paul ever held the office of deacon, 3) even if you were to stretch it to his apostolic calling, Apostle was not an office of the NT church, 4) many times the word translated "servant" should be translated "slave" depending on the translation.
Also, your translation of prostatis is suspect. You leave out the part of the definition that says it also means a patroness, or supporter via finances. Given this is the only time this is used in the NT this way, there is no evidence of any woman holding the office of deacon in the NT, and there were many women who financially supported Paul's ministry, the context favors (if not outright demands) the meaning you were careful to omit.
That gender is to be understood to be male? What does that mean? It speaks to both men and women within the context of the verses that follow. There are Greek wording that would be specific to males if Paul meant to speak only to male, however, he begins if anyone. Anyone.
That seems to be the bottom line. You cannot in any way think that there is any possibility that Christ came to restore what was the original intention of all equal before God. With that, all that you read must come to the conclusion that it cannot fit any other standard but what you have already determined.
However, I find it continually fascinating that men and women are continuing to dig deeper into the Scriptural languages and cultures of this time and coming to a very different conclusion than what has been the "norm" for so long.
You have to know that there is a very strong argument for these verses such as Phoebe, and if not it would not be such a hot topic of debate.
This would not be the first such incident in which Scripture has been wrongly interpreted due to preconcieved prejudice due to cultural conditioning.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/8/2008 7:47:59 AM
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BibleBased
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Satan wins again i guess.......
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/8/2008 9:51:42 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1129
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BibleBased
Question: Do you believe your Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ wants/ needs you to contribute to this NON STOP thread today? Or is the WORK he called you out of satan's world to do something different? Love & God bless, BibleBased.
Yes. I know I will never convince those with whom I disagree in this thread. The only reason I keep at it here is for those who read, yet never post, or for those that seek guidance on this issue.
That is what is wrong with the church today, and why we have so many problems now. People have refused to stand up for truth.
quote:
Satan wins again i guess.......
You are welcome to your opinion, but you will find few that agree.
_____________________________
I'm baaaack!
Now, where was that Benny Hinn thread?
Numbah One OG Thread Killa
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/9/2008 9:37:13 AM
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bgwill3
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Certainly, I am aware of the passages of Scriptures which indicate that God appointed men to the role of overseer. Although I was raised in a Pentecostal denomination that did not ordain women to be "elders", and did not allow them to be pastors, I came to believe that women should not be barred from such positions, and I based that belief on cultural considerations. There seem to be other passages of Scripture which even the more conservative believers among us are willing to explain based on cultural considerations.
But, having taken full inventory of both sides of the question, I really do believe now that God intended to disallow women from the office of overseer, not because women are any lesser in quality than men, nor because they are second-class citizens in the kingdom of God. On the contrary, I believe that God has instituted such a rule as a part of his divine plan, and that it is just an aspect of his divine order.
Paul relied not on cultural considerations, but on creation itself, to state that he did not allow women to teach or to have authority over men. God himself chose to create woman from man.
On a side note, and at the risk of being reprimanded for veering off-topic, I have come in contact with some interesting believers lately. There is a sabbath-keeping Pentecostal church in my neighborhood. Ironically, they compel women to cover their heads during worship service, but the pastor is an unmarried woman. I think that the spiritual covering of a husband is more important than the physical covering of the head with a veil; and I don't understand how an assembly can take some parts of Scripture so literally, while ignoring other parts so liberally. But that probably belongs in another thread...
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‡ Brian ‡
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/10/2008 3:24:42 AM
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Beck34
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That is true. I never really thought of it that way, but you are correct in that point. The new testament is full of examples of disagreements that were easily summed up with that very thing. Look at the letters that Paul writes to the early church. There were many disagreements on various things, but it clearly states that what is right for one man may not be right for another. Our foundation should be in Christ. He will lead us in the way that is right for us as an individual, not as a group.
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What do you expect, It's Beck!
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/10/2008 11:22:02 AM
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notmycity
Posts: 1237
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beck34
There were many disagreements on various things, but it clearly states that what is right for one man may not be right for another.
Chapter and verse please? (Especially as it relates to the OP)
BTW, what you suggest is no where in Scripture.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/10/2008 12:28:31 PM
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DenimDiva
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Why are women feeling a calling to be pastors?
Does it have anything to do at all with the lack of male leadership?
How come more men aren't willing to get off their pews and do something in the church?
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RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/10/2008 1:28:11 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1237
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
How come more men aren't willing to get off their pews and do something in the church?
A: Because they DO NOT believe the Scriptures (Please see below)...
1 Cor 14:23-40
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
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<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/10/2008 1:28:43 PM
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LaurainAL
Posts: 1421
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quote:
Does it have anything to do at all with the lack of male leadership?
Yes, Yes, and Yes.
_____________________________
My God! How little do my countrymen know what precious blessings they are in possession of, and which no other people on earth enjoy! ~Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/10/2008 1:44:21 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1237
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LaurainAL
quote:
Does it have anything to do at all with the lack of male leadership?
Yes, Yes, and Yes.
Pertaining to SCRIPTURAL "male leadership", agreed.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/10/2008 1:50:13 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2130
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From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: LaurainAL
quote:
Does it have anything to do at all with the lack of male leadership?
Yes, Yes, and Yes.
Pertaining to SCRIPTURAL "male leadership", agreed.
By "scriptural" I assume you are referring to the passage in 2 Opinions? However, my bible just doesn't have that passage in it.
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RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/10/2008 2:20:04 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1129
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: LaurainAL
quote:
Does it have anything to do at all with the lack of male leadership?
Yes, Yes, and Yes.
Pertaining to SCRIPTURAL "male leadership", agreed.
By "scriptural" I assume you are referring to the passage in 2 Opinions? However, my bible just doesn't have that passage in it.
Are you sure? From your posts in the past it would seem that what is actually written there doesn't get a thorough going-over, and you seem to rely heavily on said book.
Now, sir, can we leave the snide comments aside since everyone has gotten their jabs in and get back to the matter at hand?
_____________________________
I'm baaaack!
Now, where was that Benny Hinn thread?
Numbah One OG Thread Killa
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RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/10/2008 2:22:28 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1237
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
By "scriptural" I assume you are referring to the passage in 2 Opinions? However, my bible just doesn't have that passage in it.
Sorry, but I don’t know what you’re asking...
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/10/2008 4:23:51 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6076
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LaurainAL
quote:
Does it have anything to do at all with the lack of male leadership?
Yes, Yes, and Yes.
So how do we encourage men to step forward?
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RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/10/2008 6:34:15 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1881
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Why are women feeling a calling to be pastors?
Does it have anything to do at all with the lack of male leadership?
How come more men aren't willing to get off their pews and do something in the church?
It might have something to do with the rise of the feminist movement in the early to mid-20th century which led to no-fault divorce laws and abortion-on-demand as well, but of course those things also come from hearts of sin, selfishness, and pride. Same things we've been dealing with since the Garden.
There are always purposes to certain women being raised up by God in the Bible, such as the case with Deborah, but as far as leadership in today's churches, I have yet to see any plausible explanation as to why women should be pastors/elders in the body of Christ. They can be ministers to women, but men have the sole responsibility to be the spiritual leaders in the home and in the church.
It's too bad we allow culture to dictate what we should believe and do.
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"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2008 12:01:12 AM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6076
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
Status: offline
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OK- so how do we encourage men to step forward and take over their callings?
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RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2008 9:36:44 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1129
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
OK- so how do we encourage men to step forward and take over their callings?
Start holding them accountable. Pastors need to preach the word of God, with a loving heart, and let the Spirit convict them. Many do not step up because they don't see a need and they are woefully ignorant of their role and how they are needed. They also do not see their importance. To accomplish this the church needs:
1. To hold men accountable to their biblical roles and expectations
2. They need to be discipled
3. Solid teaching on spiritual gifts and apologetics
4. Praying wives, daughters, etc.
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I'm baaaack!
Now, where was that Benny Hinn thread?
Numbah One OG Thread Killa
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