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men or women? - 7/12/2008 8:41:43 AM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 214
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Two seemingly conflicting articles.
The Dilemma of a Certain Pilgrim: To Stay or Leave the Church
It is an uphill battle being an evangelical and a gender egalitarian. As an evangelical I believe Scripture is authoritative. As an egalitarian, I hold that the full equality of women and men is not a concession to be cleverly wrestled from Scripture, but the goal toward which its inspired contents actually point.
Why is the struggle for equality still so difficult? Lots of reasons, but one of them may be this. In most conservative evangelical churches, and in their largest theological society (the membership of which is about ninety-eight percent male), the “gender issue” is essentially an exegetical debate, an intellectual exercise, an occasion for sparring. There is not a lot of visceral pain, and there are never any tears. The bombs are dropped from high altitude.
Article continues - http://glenscorgie.com/category/gender/
AND...
For pastors/leaders - Where Are the Men?
Welcome to Lakeside Church, the statistically average U.S. Congregation. This week:
· Lakeside will draw an adult congregation that’s 61 percent female, 39 percent male.
· Almost 25 percent of the married women who attend Lakeside will do so without their husbands.
· Lakeside will attract a healthy number of single women, but few single men.
· The majority of men who actually show up for Sunday worship are there in body only. Their hearts just aren’t in it. Few will do anything during the week to nurture their faith.
Lakeside is the norm in Christianity – in the U.S., and around the world. Your church profile is probably similar. Count noses this Sunday – you’ll be surprised. A 60/40 gender gap (or larger) probably affects your worship services, midweek meetings, Bible studies, ministry teams, youth group, etc. In today’s church, women are the participators, men, the spectators.
Article continues - http://www.churchformen.com/leaders.php
Who's right?
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RE: men or women? - 7/12/2008 9:48:05 AM
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HeadHome
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BOTH - insofar as each one goes.
As a man, I struggle with the directives the apostle Paul gives regarding men and women's roles in church leadership. I guarantee you: I do NOT have the final answer that will make everyone agree over this issue. But if there's any place within Christian theology that demands "rightly dividing the Word," I am convinced that this is it!
Having said that, I was struck by this comment:
"The only men who can function in this feminine milieu are those who happen to be particularly sensitive, verbal, dutiful or studious. The more masculine the man, the more alienated he feels in the modern congregation."
Says who??
This reminds me of the story I read years ago (before I got saved). A bullfighter was "the toast of the town." Everyone practically worshiped him. He was considered the epitome of masculinity. One night, he threw a party in his home. But during all of the hubbub, he disappeared. Guests went looking for him, and found him with his hands busily scrubbing dishes in the kitchen sink. One stunned man squawked, "How can you be doing such a feminine thing??" The bullfighter looked down his nose at the fellow and calmly replied, "Whatever I do is masculine."
This story is my answer to the statement "The more masculine the man, the more alienated he feels in the modern congregation." It would be helpful, I think, if people thought differently about what human behaviors belong in the 'man-only' or 'woman-only' columns.
My belief is that there are some aspects of Christianity - such as the Scripturally-based questions over the correct roles of women in the church - that are meant to exist in a sort of creative tension. Perhaps the idea is for God to sift our hearts in such a way as to reveal our individual levels of compassion toward others, especially if we disagree... how likely is that? Of course, it would mean that I have properly interpreted God's intention... that's probably a dangerous assumption! 
_____________________________
Here comes the King,
All bow down;
All bow down.
- "All Bow Down," Chris Tomlin
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RE: men or women? - 7/12/2008 11:10:21 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3541
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I personally think this whole "church is too feminine thing" is a copout. It's easier for a man to claim his masculinity isn't being fed and not go to church than to buck up and go no matter what the circumstances. This is a heart problem, not a gender problem. And it probably has a lot to do with this:
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
· Almost 25 percent of the married women who attend Lakeside will do so without their husbands.
When children grow up in households in which the father does not attend church, religion becomes a feminine exercise to be abandoned when they "become men."
_____________________________
CW Underground
"In one century, we went from teaching Greek and Latin in lower schools to teaching remedial English in colleges."
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RE: men or women? - 7/12/2008 11:32:34 AM
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Rufas2000
Posts: 1040
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quote:
Lakeside will attract a healthy number of single women, but few single men.
If only that were true in the churches where I've been. 
Interesting study.
quote:
It's easier for a man to claim his masculinity isn't being fed and not go to church than to buck up and go no matter what the circumstances. This is a heart problem, not a gender problem.
Agreed. I've been guilty of using excuses for not going to church (although not that particular one).
I think the church (the overall social / religious institution) needs to recognize that there are issues that they could address that would improve church attendance. I went to a church for years that had the attitude that people were just supposed to come and if they didn't it was all on the people. Not a good attitiude to have if you're a church. Responsibilty doesn't work too well as a "I'm 40% responsible for not attending because I'm lazy and they are 60% responsible because they don't make it interesting". It should be both sides assuming 100% responsibility. The church not being what I want it to be is no reason for me not to go to the best church I can find.
This church (or organization) has taken a great first step in identifying the problem. Now they should look at what they can do to address it. And men* need to step up and go to church period** (including myself). A great first step to making the church more masculine is to have more men in it.
* Not trying to single out men but that's the group being discussed.
** I do believe it is possible that there are people who for whatever reason are not called to go to church. But I think they are very few in number and certainly not for friviolous reasons. So if anyone knows in their heart that they don't need to be in church thats up to God to judge, not me. I just know that as my church attendance improves, my Christian walk does the same so I get the importance of this issue.
_____________________________
My Own Thread, Come See!
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RE: men or women? - 7/12/2008 6:16:20 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 214
Joined: 6/7/2008
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quote:
stellaluna
I personally think this whole "church is too feminine thing" is a copout. It's easier for a man to claim his masculinity isn't being fed and not go to church than to buck up and go no matter what the circumstances. This is a heart problem, not a gender problem.
quote:
Rufas2000
And men* need to step up and go to church period** (including myself). A great first step to making the church more masculine is to have more men in it.
So, no criticism of the woman in the first article? Anyone think she has the emotional strength to be an effective minister? Storming out of church in tears when she hears something she disagrees with, throwing the Bible across the room, etc. Sounds like maturity and pride issues to me (any 'heart issues' here, stellaluna?). And, from my experience, these are not a-typical responses from church women who've been confronted with a dissenting viewpoints. Is she representative of Christian women in their struggles for equality? Is there a double standard here? Are we expecting men to 'step up' and go to church even if they don't connect, while at the same time legitimizing the complaints of women? Do we expect more strength and maturity from men? If so, why?
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RE: men or women? - 7/12/2008 6:31:15 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3591
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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I think church is more "natural" for a woman than it is for a man, generally speaking. Its social. Its opening up a sharing. Its admitting your sin nature. Its submitting.
Its also a place where the male is typically called to leadership. Ya know, as much as women rebel at submission, men rebel at being leaders. I think satan knows our gender roles and attacks us to keep us from how God made us.
There is another stat...if I remember it correctly, over 90% of families where the dad is saved, the rest of the family is saved too. satan does know where to attack and his focus sure seems to be on men.
I will also say that I go to church but my wife does not. Its not always the woman who has an unsaved husband. ( Not to say my wife is unsaved, I don't know )
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: men or women? - 7/12/2008 7:03:16 PM
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Rufas2000
Posts: 1040
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
So, no criticism of the woman in the first article?
Sorry, didn't read the article. I only commented on the OP and then on the issue of men's attendance at church. I only singled out men because they were the subject of the post (as I said earlier) and in my experience women do tend to be more involved in church than men. My experience may not be your experience.
I expect just as much out of women as I do men but I feel more comfortable criticizing my own gender.
The behavior you described in your post is of course unacceptable. So much so that saying so appears to be stating the painfully obvious.
< Message edited by Rufas2000 -- 7/12/2008 7:32:19 PM >
_____________________________
My Own Thread, Come See!
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RE: men or women? - 7/13/2008 12:06:27 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3541
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
quote:
stellaluna
I personally think this whole "church is too feminine thing" is a copout. It's easier for a man to claim his masculinity isn't being fed and not go to church than to buck up and go no matter what the circumstances. This is a heart problem, not a gender problem.
So, no criticism of the woman in the first article? Anyone think she has the emotional strength to be an effective minister? Storming out of church in tears when she hears something she disagrees with, throwing the Bible across the room, etc. Sounds like maturity and pride issues to me (any 'heart issues' here, stellaluna?). And, from my experience, these are not a-typical responses from church women who've been confronted with a dissenting viewpoints. Is she representative of Christian women in their struggles for equality? Is there a double standard here? Are we expecting men to 'step up' and go to church even if they don't connect, while at the same time legitimizing the complaints of women? Do we expect more strength and maturity from men? If so, why?
I didn't address it because I think it's dumb. But here you go.
Do I think the woman in the blog post has the emotional strength to be an effective minister? She doesn't want to be, so it doesn't mater...BUT she sounds overemotional and I think she has a lot of issues unrelated to religion and she sees herself too often as a victim. Whether or not you believe women are allowed to be pastors/ministers is moot. The bible clearly sets up a situation in which women are to learn from older, wiser women. So I'm not sure what this particular woman is complaining about, when she says:
quote:
I don’t mean that I literally want to be a teacher or pastor, but the fact that I could not be turns me off from the very community that I need in order to survive as a follower.
Um yeah, that's a heart problem and a lot of other things.
Also, I don't know what kind of women you are around, but this whole fighting "the man" in some sort of church leadership power struggle is foreign to me. And what complaints are being legitimized? I expect strength and maturity from men; I also expect strength and maturity from women. Any woman who throws a bible, cries and stomps out of the room is hardly either. 
_____________________________
CW Underground
"In one century, we went from teaching Greek and Latin in lower schools to teaching remedial English in colleges."
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